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if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...

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Revilonivek:
Jesus did not have free will either, nor do we. We are subject to God's will, according to scriptures. Technically, Jesus did not lay down his life voluntarily. He just obeyed. He had to. The whole murder/death sounds awfully like guilt. Not Love. The purpose is to guilt the audience to convert. I mean... If he didn't die a brutal death. You wouldn't feel guilt and feel bad for what happened to Jesus for everything he stood for.

Now... Even with animal sacrifices in old testament, that doesn't make sense either. Scriptures say God love the smell of burnt flesh and it satisfies his anger. They often require you to sacrifice lambs and you are to take the lamb into your home to care for for a while, enough time for you to connect to the lamb and then once you bond to the lamb, you must sacrifice it. It's used to guilt you for sinning. The slaughter of innocent animals to satisfy God who need to smell burning flesh as a fragrant  incense to soothe his anger toward you? The same applies to Jesus. To guilt you that bec of your sinning, jesus must die to soothe Gods anger toward you and be able to be forgiven? It does not make sense....


Same applies to Adam and Eve story.... They are new creation, they are always learning...And need contant teaching and they will make mistakes bec they are babes in Christ, they need good parent who is always there for them to help them along the way. Not cut them off bec of one sin. God is their parent in this case.


My point is... Our children are clean slates... When they make a mistake, we teach them, we are there for them, we show them the way. We don't banish them into exile and disappear from their sight and only communicate thru prophets to communicate with their children? They need love, care and attention and someone present to be there for them to learn from their mistakes. We know that they don't thrive as well without guidance and love. The need constant contact from their parent to know they are loved.


According to Genesis, Adam and Eve sinned once and was banished from garden of Eden for thousands of years, severe punishment and people have not seen God the Father in physical sense since. We rely on prophets, true and fake ones to lead us, we take their word for what God wants... A good Father will not abandon his children like that where blind faith is required to take in comfort that God is there. It's like an absent father who only shows evidence of his own existence through a book of scriptures and nothing else....


Think abt it.. We learn from our parents. We thrive best with parents present and constant contact to make sure you grow up right. We take in what our parents teach us and we become like them.

Same concept applies... Adam and Eve made a mistake, they were babes in Christ and God Knew that. He banished them and left them to fend for themselves and they end up relying on people  who are prophets who say they talk to Father. It's a horrible way to teach someone how to live right. We are mirrors of people we look up to. If Father was here constantly and we see him, and we get advice, lessons and so on, we would be better off. We don't treat our children like Father did to Adam and eve. Adam and eve were toddlers in a Christian sense. We don't do that to our toddlers either. We love them, we train them, we teach them, we explain, we learn thru mistakes best. You don't just cut them off. ESP when they are babes. They sinned once and that was it. Such a cruel and mean God to cut his children like that ESP when they have to learn and need his guidance. This is not right nor does it make sense... I think this is their way to explain why we can't see or talk to God and only the holy ones does?


Like I said, it doesn't make sense... Im having a hard time.

Denise

Gina:
My sister Cheri's going through the same thing you are right now.  She doesn't like God very much right now.  I've been there.  I will pray for you. :)

Craig:
I know this is not what you want to hear but  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord"


--- Quote ---We don't do that to our toddlers either. We love them, we train them, we teach them, we explain, we learn thru mistakes best.
--- End quote ---

And then they become adults and sometimes, kill, rape, lie, cheat, steal, cause wars, gossip, show their tempers, abuse themselves, etc. etc.  Works real well doesn't it?  You said it "we learn thru mistakes best."  Isn't that what the purpose of this existence comes down too? Learning through our mistakes and trials is a process of our creation.

Now to your original question on why His Son had to be tortured and killed? Honestly that question has haunted me too and the attempts to explain it to my satisfaction have come up short. There seems to be more to this than we see, the answer that I will give you is I don't know, but I trust it has/had a very grand and necessary purpose.

Craig

Craig

onelovedread:
Denise
You ask why does God need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. I find an answer to that when I read the book of Hebrews. Here are a couple of passages that help me, and I hope they help you too.

Hebrews 7: 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9: 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal (should be translated eonian) redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


Hebrews 2: 10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

Hebrews 4: 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet he did not sin.

I hope this at least leads you to a different perspective in searching for an answer to your question, Denise.

Gina:
One thing it has done for me is, it makes me NEVER want to torture another human being, etc., that way. 

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