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if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...

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newgene87:

--- Quote from: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 08:20:46 PM ---It doesn't make sense.. to be honest.

The same concept applies... for example.. if I sin against you, and you cannot forgive me unless your own biological son, The good one, kills (tortured/murdered)  himself to save me, the bad child and it is only then that you can forgive me. It's like you need someone of your own to die in order to forgive someone. To me.. that is messed up. Why need bloodshed in order to forgive? Why can't he just forgive?

I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute.  It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood.  A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense.. Why can't he just forgive us, after sending a mediator, to show us the way. Why need bloodshed, death, and so on, in order to save us? That part doesn't make sense.

--- End quote ---

I understand your concern. It doesnt "make sense". But a sure scripture

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

There are just some things we will not grasp. But the fact that Christ went through that suffering, torment, torture and sacrifice - it makes me Love God even more. But as far as shedding blood... It's scripture

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

It's Law and Scripture. But this was referring to Animals. But the Will of God called for something better

Hebrews 10:4-6
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Shedding blood is important though

Hebrews 9:22
and with blood almost all things are purified according to the law, and apart from blood- shedding forgiveness doth not come.

It was atonement for souls. But Christ died for sinners, for the world, for redemption, mercy - and this is SURE because He gave his life. That is truly good news. It's not enough for him to live a great life, preach teach, pave the way, live an old life and die. But sacrifice himself for the world

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now, for the weak at heart, this can be cruelty to animals and unfair but this is the way for "life for life". But not an animal for one person, but a Righteous Man for MANY. It's truly the Gospel. So i thank Jesus for doing that, not jus for me but for the world

Romans 5:7-10
For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

It may not make so much sense; but what makes sense to me is Jesus give his life as a ransom for mine and the worlds. Its Love

Eugene

Samson:

--- Quote from: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 01:22:25 PM ---I have a question that has been bothering me... If God wanted to forgive us, why can't he just forgive us just like that, like he asks us to forgive others. Why does he need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. It just doesn't make sense? i need your insight on this. Thanks so much.

Denise

--- End quote ---

Hi Denise,

God does just forgive us, forgiveness is a done deal according to Revelation. 13:8(" the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World.") See: 1Peter. 1:19,20. We were already forgiven from before the Foundation of the World, but unfortunately or fortunately We are Accountable for Our Sins.

Jesus mentions being Chastised or Corrected from the Greek word Kolasin which is derived from Kolazo literally meaning "to prune with a view to improving us." He never used the Greek Word Timoria which means a severe penalty or punishment, although that word is mentioned in Hebrews addressing believers.

I wish, quite often that God didn't plan for us to suffer in the many ways We often do, I don't enjoy it. Sometimes, I feel like what's mentioned in the verses listed below, specifically Romans. 9:19.


Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Apparently, God knows We need or require the suffering & chastening We experience in this Life for our correction. Most of Mankind will have to wait for the Fulfillment of Isaiah, 26:9, the inhabitants of the World learning righteousness from His Judgements, matters being set straight.

Just consider for a minute that Satan was created wicked, the destroyer, the waster, a liar & murderer from the beginning. He couldn't do otherwise and yet He will suffer severe correction & purification of His Carnal self in order to be transformed and become righteous.

Also, no one can truly and fully forgive anyone without God's Spirit enabling them to do so.

Stephen certainly couldn't forgive the Religious Leaders on His own. Act 7:58  And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

It all boils down to the fact that We are accountable for Our mistakes, whether planned or unplanned including even foolish mistakes leading to accidents, even when making what We think are the best possible choices that don't turn out the way We thought. That's the way God thought it was best to proceed.

Often, I don't particularly like it, but it continues to happen, for almost 56 years in My case. Why didn't God just make us Morally, spiritually & physically flawless with the inability to Sin. I really don't fully know, but one day We all will, in the meantime, your guess is as good as mine.  ;)

Carry On & may God assist you in your endeavor to cope with this difficult experience entitled: Life. Samson.

Samson:
Denise,

Just a short excerpt from Ray, The Lake of Fire, Part 2(The origin of Sin) might shed some of the light, if even only a fraction towards Your inquiry. Read Below !

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God;" and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

    "And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

    "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

    "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

    "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

    Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards.

Carry On, Samson.

Kat:

Denise, just think for a minute what human being are having to endure in this life... we have people in here saying all the time that it just isn't fair what humans are suffering and what kind of God would do that to His creation. Well it seems that an all wise God has determined that what is happening in the world is necessary for the ultimate proper end development of this human race.

BUT does He stand back and put us through the ringer, so to speak, and say that's just the way it has to be? NO! He did not. He worked into His plan what He knew, as a perfect just God, would be necessary to prove what He was doing would not be done without a tremendous sacrifice on His part. He created a Son, someone who could relate to this human race in body and speech (which the Father can not), made Him greater than we can imagine. Then made Him lower than angels and into a human fleshly being. Now you say...


--- Quote ---I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute.  It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood.  A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense..
--- End quote ---

And so for God to come down and just to live this life and die of old age should be enough for us from God, right? Do you really think that people that have suffered greatly in this life through all manners of evil would think He did something special, after they had to suffer so much? I could see how they would think God absolutely did not understand what they had to endure, and maybe they would be right. BUT He does understand because of what He DID endure. No person can come before God when they give account and say 'you just don't know what it's like to suffer so much,' no person can say that.

He suffered one of the most horrible deaths, not because He was "a blood thirsty" God, but because He loves us so much He was willing to do whatever it took to prove it and show us... and that was that our GOD became literal flesh, how much degradation is that, but no that was not enough, as He also died a brutal death. To question this ultimate act of humility and look on it as an act of anything less than absolute love is despicable.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Gina:

--- Quote from: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 08:20:46 PM ---It doesn't make sense.. to be honest.

The same concept applies... for example.. if I sin against you, and you cannot forgive me unless your own biological son, The good one, kills (tortured/murdered)  himself to save me, the bad child and it is only then that you can forgive me. It's like you need someone of your own to die in order to forgive someone. To me.. that is messed up. Why need bloodshed in order to forgive? Why can't he just forgive?

I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute.  It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood.  A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense.. Why can't he just forgive us, after sending a mediator, to show us the way. Why need bloodshed, death, and so on, in order to save us? That part doesn't make sense.

--- End quote ---

Hey Denise,

Long time no see.  I hope school's going well for you.  I've been thinking about you. :)

There's more than one question up there. ;) 

It isn't that it doesn't make sense.  We ask questions like this because we don't like the way God does things.

No greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friends.

And the way he died....

Who else in history has ever done such a thing?  It certainly perks a person's ears up.  It's like that proverbial bell that you can't unring.  It's stuck there in the brain and going to take the rest of our natural lives to not just figure it out but to believe it...

Romans 10:6   But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias said, Lord, who has believed our report?

I agree with Kat.  As Ray pointed out clearly, God did not force Jesus to die. 

John 10


15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus appears to be saying he was commanded of His Father to lay down his life, but God did not FORCE this on Jesus.  Jesus OBEYED that commandment by VOLUNTARILY laying down his life. 

Jesus always did what pleased His father.

7 Then said Jesus to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and flees: and the wolf catches them, and scatters the sheep.

13 The hireling flees, because he is an hireling, and cares not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.



John 8


28 Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself ; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.

Jesus acknowledges right there that his obedience to laying down of his life (voluntarily) is not of himself, but He is doing as his Father TAUGHT him.  He was not forced.  Sounds to me like he was imitating his Father... yes?

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father has not left me alone; FOR I DO ALWAYS THOSE THINGS THAT PLEASE HIM.

It's exactly what Alex said: But with Jesus He didn’t have to die. I mean God can save humanity without anybody having to die on the cross to do it. Why did He do it? To show us how much He loves us! I mean when there is no real compunction that something needs to be done and you volunteer to do it, just because you want to prove to somebody your love… I mean that is pretty profound.     http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=11521.0

All I can say is...


IT CERTAINLY GETS A PERSON'S ATTENTION, DOESN'T IT!

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