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All is out of God
Patric:
I would have been more comfortable had there been a tree of good...and a tree of evil.....LOL yet they are in the same tree! All is of the Father.....good and evil. We must go through the flesh to be made in his image.
I once sat with 3 men and studied the bible some 25 years ago when I knew nothing nor had our Father shown me many truths of his word. I asked them if God really wanted us to be with him in Heaven, then why does he not just put us there? I went on and on to defend my words and my own sin by saying that what is the purpose of life if we are going to have to do it all and or make it? LOL Had I known then what I know now.....I was right!!!! Yet I was also wrong. Christ did it for us.
No one loves God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. The burden of not trying or living like I could was such a salvation issue for me. If Christ did it all.....why do I have to ......fill in the blank....etc etc. If I could do it without him, then it was me loving God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. I now see when he said "it is finished." What this means......spiritually to my heart, soul, mind, and strength! Yes all is of the Father
onelovedread:
Many of Ray's teaching have blown away the falsehoods of Christendom and taught me of God's ways. But none have been more life changing than "All is out of God". For instance, I never before considered that God created evil for a purpose.
As Kat wrote:
"God has designed men to be spiritually WEAK. Men go against God's WILL--God planned for men to go against His will--it was His original INTENTION. But...BUT, absolutely NO ONE HAS EVER OR EVER WILL, GO AGAINST HIS INTENTION! Romans 9:19 should read, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood HIS INTENTION?" And the answer is, "absolutely NO ONE"!
God be with you,
Ray."
I will always be grateful for L. Ray Smith and thankful to God for leading me to his website and to this forum, both of which continue to open my spiritual eyes. Thanks, guys!
darren:
Ya, your probable right that I misunderstood your post. Wouldn't be the first time most likely wont be the last. Sorry if I came off rude didn't mean to come off like that. The last part of your post is what I was looking for scripture.
" So has evil been apart of God since the beginning? Well, only in knowledge and wisdom but not in the sense that He Himself is evil. He just knew about it from the begiinning because He too, experienced it.
Hope this helps, if not, feel free to clarify
Im not being rude. Just looking for clarification and the word of God.
Thanks,
Darren
Gina:
--- Quote from: darren on November 01, 2012, 02:52:37 AM ---I recall Ray asking the question: Where did or how did God know evil?? Before there was anything before there was any creation of anykind How did God know evil? When there was just God and nothing else How did HE know evil? Ray said WE know God is love many scriptures back this up. God is good We know this from scriptures. Where, how and why would God create evil? WE know God is not evil. I dont think Ray ever spoke on this any further. Here is my question. We know from scripture that God created Good and evil. WE also know from scripture that ALL IS OUT of God. All means All. This is gona sound bad,, here goes: Love goodness mercy and justice and evil came out of God. Still The question remaineds. Rays said you cant have light without dark, up without down, sweet without sour. Good without evil. God is alpha n omage, no ending no beginning. Has evil been a part of God since the beginning? Just as Love and goodness Im sure I will be tared and feather for this. Just looking for ansewers.
Darren
--- End quote ---
Hey Darren,
I hope all is well with you.
I think yours is a really good question. "I have all the answers!" hehe No, not really, but I think I might have been given the answer. Please tell me what you think.
First, Everyone: I have prayed and asked God for wisdom, because I know that what I'm about to say is not something that Ray just came right out stated -- these are just my thoughts as pieced together from the things Ray talked about in his Does God Learn study. If anything I say comes across as teaching, Mods, please feel free to delete my post. You don't have to explain why you deleted it or apologize; I'm confident you have good judgment. My sincere hope is that it will help Darren and others, and will at least lead to settling the question (Since God is good, how could evil have ever come out from Him??!. I don't want any praise or glory if what I'm about to say is correct. But I certainly don't want to confuse anyone either because God is not the author of confusion. Here I go... :))
Darren, I'm going to highlight portions of Ray's study on Where Did God Get Knowledge [and I'm assuming the knowledge of Good and Evil, not just good]. It's really simple, I believe, to figure out where God got this knowledge of evil if you just follow the highlighted portions below.
Note: This study was done in 2008, a year after Ray's study that Alex quoted. I'm not a very good communicator (You're stating the obvious, Gina! ~The peanut gallery~ lol) and sometimes I have trouble getting my thoughts across clearly, so if you, or Kat or Alex, or Deb/Arc or DaveinTenn, and anyone else, would be so kind as to help me gather / collect my thoughts, I'd be very appreciative.
--- Quote --- Where Did God Get Knowledge ?
I asked the question; Did God have a master plan when He created the universe? Did He have something in mind? Where did that come from? It must have been something He always had in mind.
Did God always have this plan? You see we get this thing that God has always been everything that He is. God says He doesn’t change. It says, He says He has all knowledge. Oh yea, well where did He get it? I don’t doubt that God has all knowledge, but where did He get it? ‘Well He always had it.’ Do you have chapter and verse on that?
[Comment: Is, was and always will be] Jesus said that. But He was a created being. He came out from the Father. But now that He did, “He is,” He’s alive today, resurrected from the dead. “He was,” He was the one who created everything, He was the one that died for the sins of man and “He always will be.” That’s true. But even if you were to say that of the Father, that He is and was and always will be, there is still no statement that He always was what He is.
Does God learn? You say, ‘Ray it is sacrilege to talk like that.’ Well I’m sorry, but I think about this and I’ve talked to God about stuff like this and I don’t believe that I’m sacrilege at all. I honor God, I worship God.
Coming in here to learn this stuff this is worship. Waving your hands and falling over backwards and foaming at the mouth, that’s not worship. Learning the truths of God and saying, ‘I believe that and I can see that, this is wise, it is wisdom and this will help me be the kind of person that God wants.’ That is worship. You believe and you obey God, that’s worship.
Does God Learn ?
I’ve ask these questions all my life. I didn’t have an answer for them. But I ask the questions. Does God learn? I know He knows everything, but does He know everything because He learned it all?
Well I though, there’s a lot of stuff I’m not going to know. But then I also believed that there is so much more in the Bible than we have ever seen. I mean it’s in there There is so much in there, you just have to pay attention to the words.
You know I look at Scripture and I read them over 30... 50... 180 times and then sometimes something jumps out at me. I’m relentless, I’m like a bulldog and I beg God. I say, ’God I don’t know this, show me. Show me! I know it’s in there, show me!’
Anyway, is there any indication in the Bible that God, before the creation, before there was a universe or even a Jesus Christ, is there any indication that God either learned something or accomplished something that didn’t exist with Him, prior to that? Some might say, ‘Ray I think you are on dangerous ground. I think you are talking heresy and this verges on sacrilegion.’
I ask the question... I had a debate with Jeff Priddy, I friend of mine, has some screwy ideas, but he’s a nice guy. I was talking about emotions and he said, ‘Ray God does not have emotions.’ I said, well what is love and how come God is love, if God does not have emotion. He said, ‘No, that’s just for human terms and He is so way above and beyond that and everything else.’
But then over time I got to thinking about that and I said, wait a minute in Galatians 5 we are given a list of the fruits of God Spirit. One of them in the King James is longsuffering. Okay longsuffering, what does that mean? Patience. What is that made up of? Is it made up as an archaic English term?
Longsuffering - to suffer long. One of the fruits of God Spirit is to suffer long. How can it be a fruit of God’s Spirit if He doesn’t even possess it Himself?
I told somebody that I was going to ask a question at this conference; Did God ever do an honest days work in His life? I mean a really hard day’s work. Did He? Well you would say, ‘well He created the universe, that was a little work.’ No, all these Christians theologies say He just spoke it, let there be stars… let there be suns and moons… let there be an earth… let there this and that… just let there be... let it be... let it be... and there you are. Wow, I’m tried I think I’ll rest a day.
Did God ever do an honest hard days work in His life? You say, ‘Ray it doesn’t apply, you can’t apply what we do to what He does.’ How can you say it doesn’t apply? Jesus Christ worked and He suffered, He had long suffering and He had patience and He was the very image of His Father! The expressed stamped image of His Father! And we are to be in the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 08). In the very image of God and the very image of Jesus Christ, our elder brother.
So how could Jesus have all this love and all this patience and all this mercy and He said everything He got came from His Father? Every thought He thought, every word He spoke, every deed He done came from His Father. How can you say the Father doesn’t have patience?
Patience is doing without something you want, but you can’t have it now. You have to exercise patience. You might even have to have longsuffering, you might have to suffer long. That is a fruit of God’s Spirit.
I could never believe in my heart of hearts that God would expect of us, things that He would not move His little finger to do Himself.
Jesus Christ berated the Pharisees. He said you load these heavy heavy burdens on people, very difficult for them to do what you tell them they need to do to be holy and righteous and good. Yet you would not move them with one of your fingers.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Is He accusing the Pharisees of something His own Father is guilty of? Are you following me? Is Jesus Christ condemning and berating the Pharisees for something His own Father is guilty of… that He lays heavy burdens on us and He wouldn’t lift them with one of His fingers, but we have to? We have to suffer through sixty or eighty years of sometimes horrible misery and disease and heartache and everything. What does God know about that? Nothing? I don’t think so. I don’t buy that nonsense anymore. I think that God has gone through a lot for us.
The Principal Thing
I said that Onkelos translated Genesis 1:1 not “In the beginning,” but “In wisdom.” “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” I couldn’t understand that, so I looked it up in Strong’s and I got all the words for wisdom and I looked them up and it didn’t make sense. But then I did find Scriptures in the Psalms and so on, that said “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” It’s not Genesis 1:1, but it’s the same, “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth and there are several of them. But is that the way Genesis 1:1 could be translated? Well apparently so. When you look and Strong’s definition there is one word at the end of the definition.
“In the beginning” H7225 rê'shîyth
The first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
He says firstfruit, beginning and then at the end it says the “principal thing.” The principal thing, what is that? The principal thing… and Onkelos translates “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth.” I just couldn’t get it and finally it hit me. Some place the Bible must tell us what the “principal thing” is.
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing;
WISDOM
There it is. “Wisdom is the principal thing.” Now go over to chapter 8, it talks about wisdom personified.
Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
v. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
v. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
v. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
v. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
v. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
v. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
v. 17 I (wisdom) love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
v. 18 Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
v. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
v. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
v. 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
v. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.
Wisdom is speaking in the first person, “I” wisdom. “I” was with the Lord in the beginning before there ever was any works. “I” was set up… ever the earth was.” Before there was an earth.
Pro 8:24 When there was no depths, I was brought forth, when there were no fountains abounding with waters,
v. 25 Before mountains were settled, Before the hills was, I brought forth.
v. 26 While as yet He had not made the earth, or the fields or the highest parts of the dusts of the world.
v. 27 When He prepared the heavens I was there, when He set a compass upon the face of the earth,
v. 28 When He established the clouds above: when He strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Who was there with God? [Wisdom] Wisdom! Before anything was made, who was there with God? [Wisdom] Wisdom! Where did it come from? It took a little digging to get this out.
Verse 24 “When there was no depths, I was brought forth.” Now before I get into that, understand that terms that applied to us are applied to God. The Bible talks about men of power… does God have power? [Yes] Is the power that God possesses greater or lesser than the power men possesses? [Greater] Much greater, considerably greater, infinitesimally more greater.
Does God have mercy? [Yes] Does He have more mercy than men? [Yes]
Does God have love? [Yes] Same love that we have, right, same amount? [No] You cannot compare the love that God has with the love that we have. Yes we have love and we kind of know what it means. But it can not be compared with the love that God has.
Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay.
The word there “brought forth” is H2342 chûl (khool, kheel) A primitive root; properly to twist or to dance (in some contexts, but there is only one application of it), to writhe in pain…
Not just to hurt… you know ‘writhing’ in pain, when you can’t even think straight.
- bear, bring forth, calve, great, grieve, grievous, be in pain, sore, sorrow, travail (with pain).
Those are powerful words aren’t they. If you went through all that you would think you were in childbirth. Guess what this word means here, “I was brought forth”? Travailed - birthed. Can this mean what it says?
Before God could create us and the universe and creatures in His own likeness, He had to know how to do it. How hard was that? ‘Oh but nothing is too hard for God.’ There is nothing 'too hard' for God. Too hard, that means impossible, but how close to that does it come? Are things very very hard for God at times? Did God ever do a honest days work? Did God ever suffer? Was God ever long suffering? Did He have to have patience?
He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it before the creation came, the master plan and the wisdom to do it. How did He get that wisdom? He birthed it! Under the travail and pain and agony, that He passed on to women to experience a minute little insignificant part of what it is like to bring about children that are going to be in the image of God.
He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, ‘I don’t see it.’ I don’t care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So don’t think that God hasn’t done anything for us.
God has never suffered? God has never had to work hard? God has never had to go long periods of time and not get what it is He wanted? Don’t think that way anymore. You have a Father in heaven that can identify with everything you are.
--- End quote ---
continuing...
So, then I thought of how Ray quotes, God has given to mankind an experience of evil to humble him thereby? Well, to me, evil didn't always exist with God originally. But He had to learn of it somehow, so when did He learn. To me, He learned it as it came out of an experience God had when He birthed/Travailed wisdom and SUFFERED LONG in deep, agonizing, writhing miserable pain to bring forth wisdom. The experience God went through when He birthed / travailed in agonizing pain wisdom, before the earth,etc., ever was. God experienced evil, and that's how He knows evil, learned of evil, understands that evil (which has no moral bias) can serve a good purpose.
The pain that God went through to bring forth wisdom is the same pain [experience of evil] that he gave to Eve back in the day. And from a woman's perspective, that my friend is an experience of evil, almost as bad or worse, than passing a kidney stone. I'm telling you the God's honest truth. (Back labor is what I had and it felt like all my bones in my body were being pushed together at every joint, and so hard, that they would break or come through my skin--it's something I can't describe except it's this dull, constant, aching deep, deep pain in your bones as your baby is trying to make its way through the birth canal and it all starts at the pelvic bones. It's the kind of pain that makes you start to just shake, I imagine much like what Ray was going through with his arm that he mentioned in this study. the women here who have had back labor, they know what I'm talking about. lol] That's experience of evil. It's not wicked, or what have you, but it is definitely an experience of long suffering that makes a woman wonder why she'd ever get pregnant again after the first go round. seriously. But many women get past that pain / experience and go on to have more children, because God put in place a thing that causes a woman to not remember all that pain, and it happens almost immediately after birth. It's the wildest thing!]
Further, we tell our kids, you want a car? Good. You'll have to get a job and save up for the down payment yourself -- you'll appreciate that car more and take better care of it. You do that because you know that that experience of "evil" will serve them for years to come.
Well, that's all I got. I hope that made some sense to someone. It makes loads of sense to me, but you know me! lol
God Bless you Darren, my friend. I hope you and yours are well. Think of you every day.
Gina
p.s. I love you all. I've been lurking for a while and you all have so many good things to say and I love the way that you all express yourselves so well and with so much class. I'm so glad that I have this forum and you guys to retreat to. And with that, I'm going back to lurking.
p.p.s. Darren, I just wanted to say too that evil has boundaries. "Thus far shall you come and no further." (That's God talking to raging waves of the sea back in Job I think). Like, when we die we don't keep experiencing pain and agony, because that pain and agony ends sooner or later, but thank God it ends. All evil will eventually have to come to an end once it has served the purpose for which it was created and that purpose always ends in something good. Very good. God said at the end of each creation eon/day (whatever you want to call it), ... "...and it was very good."
darren:
Thanks to all who have responded to my post. Thanks for your insight and comments.
Gina I have listen to read many, many times over the yrs Rays writings and audios. Where did God get His wisdom. Was God always perfect. How did God know evil. Plus many many more. I was just wondering if I might have missed something on these subjects Ray might have spoken. I believe there is no new information on this.
Once again, Thanks to those who took time out of bizz.day to respond to my little post.
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