> General Discussions
What will happen to those who teach eternal hell?
Rene:
--- Quote from: Gina on December 02, 2012, 11:07:20 AM ---
Ray specifically said they will incur a punishment that will apparently be a surprise, even to us.
--- End quote ---
Speaking of "punishment", this is what Ray stated in the "Lake of Fire" series Part 16-D3, The Sermon On The Mount...:
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm
Punishment has its place, but punishment is not the best deterrent to sin. Righteous judgment, however, is a great deterrent to sin:
"When THY Judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9).
Right judgment produces righteousness.
This may not be the answer you are looking for, but it holds the key to your understanding if you can see it. Judgment will be by fire; God's consuming fire. People will come to see their God hating ways and beliefs, and this process will be a painful experience as the veil of deceit and blindness is removed.
René
Gina:
Agreed. Punishment isn't the best deterrent to sin. But since Rhys was asking what punishment they're going to receive, I figured the best thing to do would be to be honest with him and tell him what that punishment will be. I don't find blessings in store for people who habitually and willingly go against God's will, I find God's wrath and indignation. ("Why then is He still angry with us?") God isn't going to swat them on the backside and say " Naughty, naughty...now, don't you do that anymore..." It's going to be very, very difficult -- and painful, as you said. With what judgment you dole out that's what you receive. That's what the bible says. But of course that's not the end of the matter. The end of the matter is they'll be cleansed and saved and God will be all in all. But Rhys wasn't asking about the end of the matter. He was asking specifically about their punishment.
Dave in Tenn:
I think the 'surprise' is that they will not be first. There is an order to things. The Jews will not precede the gentiles. The Pharisees will not precede the harlots and publicans. There will be many saying Lord, Lord, have we not done wonderful works in Thy Name who will not precede the world at large. It actually is better to be cold than luke-warm.
When I think back on my time as an "evangelical" and the 'joy' we were encouraged to either have or fake when an actual sinner was 'saved', I can see 'them' in judgement. Some will be glad, and others will be mad--mad that the ones they had consigned to Hell (including many times fellow christians) should be received as sons and daughters while they are not, as they had presumed.
I have to believe that by the time it is 'their' turn, they will have learned a lot about the way God Loves and works, and that the goodness of God will draw them to repentance. But not before.
God judges us individually, though scripture puts 'us' in categories. He does this for our benefit, not because He can't keep track of so many individual hearts. Every man does what is right in his own eyes, but God judges the heart. It's blasphemous to believe that God will not save all. But it's adding great heaping sin to that to delight in the future endless torture of most of mankind. The Lord will sort us all out and do RIGHT by and in judgement for the purpose of creating us in His image.
As for good works, they are also judged. What is truly good is refined and made better. But there is a way to lose reward in the kingdom by doing 'good works' for the praise of men, or ostentatiously or without a cheerful heart or faithlessly. There is a reward for such 'good works', but it is NOW, not later. The Lord sees all and knows the very motives of our hearts. Again, He will do what is right.
Gina:
Rhys,
Not to harp, but you selected an excerpt from Ray's paper that used the word punishment, but then you switched and asked about judgment and wondered what Ray said their judgment would be, but then you switched back and asked about their punishment. I don't believe that judgment is the same as punishment, although judgment does entail punishment.
You said (and again, I promise I don't mean this as harping on you, but it helps to gain clarity so the getting the correct response is the end result):
--- Quote ---It seems to me so many other sins seem terrible these days and brought to the front of the cue and from what I have heard of those in the world, they think hell is just a joke. Those in the church are either warning those of the coming torture, all they seem rather quiet which I always thought seemed strange when they sit down together drinking there coffee and going on about the wonderful things going on in the lives while knowing all the other people around them are on the way to hell but that’s OK the coffee is great. For those that do warn others at least they are putting into practice what they believe.
--- End quote ---
I don't agree that they believe what they're putting into practice by warning others about a place of eternal torment that they can't prove exists. That is exactly why so many people believe that hell is a joke -- and good on them for using the brains that they've been given. But because those in the church don't know any other way to deter people from breaking the law, they have to lie and put words in God's mouth for everyone to hear, including innocent little children. People have been murdered because they don't believe in a god who would do that. By the same token, people who do believe it are murdered or thrown in jail in Muslim and atheist countries. But that doesn't make teaching it right. God hates sinners but He doesn't torture them. That's an evil, vile, disgusting man-made, invention. Are you saying that robbing God of His good name and character and making Him out to be ten trillion gazillion times worse the monster that Hitler (and all his ilk combined) is far less a crime than say... murdering millions of Jews, raping little boys? Because that's not what the bible says. The bibles says that those who BLASPHEME the Holy Spirit of God will not only not be forgiven in this age, but they will not receive forgiveness in the age to come!
Is that righteous judgment or is that punishment? It would really help me to get clear on the difference between punishment and judgment, if that's alright with you, Rhys.
:)
(Great topic by the way.)
Kat:
Mat 25:45 Then He shall answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (eonian) punishmentG2851, but the righteous into everlasting life.
G2851 (punishment) - penal infliction: - punishment, torment.
Think about all these people in the resurrection of the dead who have had a lifetime to developed all kinds of sins, that are now habitual and ingrained. Now I don't think the punishment they will receive is literal stripes, as in physical beatings. But when Christ takes over rulership of this world those criminals and people who have developed every manner of wickedness will not be allowed to do any of these things anymore.
Now if you think about it in order to correct the wickedness in people will be a long and laborious process of continually correcting these wrong character flaws. This will be tormenting to be constantly supervised and corrected of every unrighteousness.
Isa 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet your Teacher will not hide himself anymore, but your eyes shall see your Teacher.
Isa 30:21 And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, "This is the way, walk in it," when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.
So there is no quick and easy way to re-teach most of these people, yes some will be easier then others, thinking of the patriarchs and John the Baptist. But most will have a long, hard, even torturous for some, way to go to un-learn all their wrong ways of thinking and be taught how to live in righteousness.
Well that's just what it seems like it could be to me anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version