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MG:
There are many times when scripture seems to go two ways. I can see what you're saying, but the other scriptures are true too. They all work together in some way and those are the mysteries that God shows us. I've learned that no scripture can be thrown out to make another scripture work.

The first thing I would wrestle with looking at your thoughts on the 1000 year reign would be that there are scriptures in the old testament saying that they had the Holy Spirit then. The apostles received the Holy Spirit over 2000 years ago. All the dead are resurrected at the end of the 1000 year reign so there are many things that don't fit.

MG:
Ray writes a lot here.

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html



--- Quote ---And this declaration is made just five verses before the END OF THE BIBLE!

But don’t be deceived, Jesus Christ IS the "tree of life" in the Garden, and NO ONE can partake of that tree of life except he first pass the through the "FLAMING SWORD" that points in all directions and guards the tree of life. Remember, "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
--- End quote ---


Genesis 3
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Revelation 22
 1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

 5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

 7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

 8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

 10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


Colossians 3
 1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


 5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

hillsbororiver:
Ray addresses the timeline issue as to when the Elect are actually saved, there seems to be a supposition by some that they are already "saved" and that much or all of the prophetic future events have either already happened or are happening presently. Although this is primarily directed at the futility of "The Sinners Prayer" it does deal with what we are to look forward to.

From Fools Hypocrites;

And just how long must we be put up with all this persecution and trials of the cross? Again, let Jesus answer:

"And ye [Gk: ‘all of you’] shall be hated of all men for My Name’s sake [Does that include ALL Believers? ‘YEA, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus, SHALL suffer persecution’]: but he that endures [Gk: "remain, under go, bear trials, have fortitude, persevere, suffer’] TO THE END shall be saved" (Matt. 10:22).

Are we to foolishly conclude that "he that endures NOT to the end," and "he that does NOT overcome," and "he that does NOT suffer persecution," and "he that does NOT take up his cross," and "he that is NOT baptized into Christ’s death," and "he that does NOT live godly and righteously," shall ALSO be saved just as long as he speaks a twenty-second sinner’s prayer? Nonsense. There are HUNDREDS of Scriptures which tell us the many, many things that God will do in and through us before He actually "SAVES us."

Most of the nearly 50 New Testament verses regarding spiritual "salvation" in the King James are in the Greek aorist tense (equating to the ‘indefinite’ in English). Most of these 50 verses are translated correctly in the King James. The following are found many times in our Bibles:

"BE saved," "TO BE saved," "SHALL BE saved," "SHOULD BE saved," "MUST BE saved," "MAY BE saved," [and] "MIGHT BE saved."

Where you find "saved" or "HAS saved," it usually has reference to someone whom Jesus healed, rather than spiritual salvation into the Kingdom of God. A few times we find the phrase: "ARE saved." This, however, is not telling us WHEN we are saved, but rather HOW we "ARE saved." (Scripturally we "are saved" by hope, grace, and the gospel).

Although Eph. 2:8 tells us that, "By grace ARE ye saved through faith…" This is a statement of HOW we get saved—by grace, those in the past "are saved," those living now "are saved" by grace WHEN they get saved, and those in the future also "are saved" by grace (as opposed to some other means). A very few King James renderings such as I Cor. 1:18 & II Cor. 2:15 should also read, "are BEING saved" (as it is in the Greek), whereas II Tim. 1:9 & Titus 3:5 should read, "SAVES us [an ongoing process]."

And so the Scriptural truth of this matter is, no one is saved (in the past tense) in this life without "enduring unto the END." Else it would make no sense at all for Paul to state:

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be A CASTAWAY [Gk: ‘disqualified]" (I Cor. 9:27)

if he were ALREADY SAVED (past tense) at the time he made the statement.

The Scriptures are loaded with this principle:

"Therefore I endure [presently he ‘endures’] all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain [future] the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (II Tim. 2:10).

Jesus taught that the seed that fell on the stony ground did ‘endure for a time,’ but since it had not deep root, the cares of this world caused it to ‘wither away.’ Is it not clear that we must 'endure unto the END’ to be saved?

And Paul absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that NO ONE is saved (in the past tense) IN THIS LIFE. Here is why:

"For we are saved BY HOPE: [also by "grace," and "the gospel,"] but hope that is seen [seen as a fact, as in, ‘I am already saved’] is NOT HOPE: for what a man sees, why does he YET HOPE FOR [it]? But if we hope for that we see not [is not a fulfilled fact as yet] then do we with PATIENCE [perseverance] WAIT FOR IT" (Rom. 8:24-25).

It should be obvious to all that there is no need whatsoever to "patiently WAIT" for something that we already have. What a horrible lie and heresy the Church teaches on this most important subject, by deceiving billions into thinking they can be saved by mouthing a 20 second prayer!

It is absolutely useless to call Jesus, "LORD, LORD…" in a 20 second sinner’s prayer or in any other way, unless you are ready to follow the rest of our Lord’s admonition, "…and do not THE THINGS WHICH JESUS SAYS" (Luke 6:46). I could go on for fifty more pages on this one theme, but it’s time I bring this to a close.


How can we be ruling with Christ for the "thousand years" if we are not even saved yet?

You can read the entire article @:

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm

buddyjc:
That was a good point Joe.  I have been trying to see a better way of explaining that the resurrection has not occured yet.  Thank you.

The 144,000 are symbolic of the elect.  Remember that the physical Jews are no longer considered Jews. 

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Brian

hillsbororiver:
The following is an excerpt from; http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

DO BELIEVERS ALREADY POSSESS EONIAN LIFE?

How much eonian life do we have in us? Will we not ever die since we have "eonian life" abiding in us at present? Do we have Scripture on that? No we don’t. But do we have a Scripture that says the amount of "life" which we do have in us is a sure promise that we WILL LIVE with Jesus throughout the coming eons? Yes we do:

"…ye are sealed with that holy SPIRIT of promise [‘promise’ of WHAT?] which is the EARNEST [Gk: ‘down payment or deposit’] of our [future] inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).

Well there it is, UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession." And when do we get that? We were already reading about it in I Cor. 15. Let’s read this entire section of Scripture as it is the whole plan of God from the creation of Adam down to the "redemption of the purchased possession" of the Few Chosen Elect Saints of God:

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

"As is the earthy, such are they also which are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have born the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep [According to Christendom, no one will ever sleep. They contradict by saying there is no such thing as sleep in death, but they lie: Psalm 13:3, ‘Consider and hear me O my God…lest I sleep the sleep OF DEATH’], but we shall all be changed [When? This is so important. WHEN shall we be changed? At the instant that all believers DIE? NO…], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [Then, and only then, and at NO OTHER TIME IN HISTORY!]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead [The ‘dead,’ mind you, not the living, but the dead] shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

This is the reason we continue to live after the eons are over. Not because we were promised something called "eternal or everlasting life," but because at the resurrection we will be given "incorruption and immortality," which means "death-less-ness".

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

When? When will death be "swallowed up in victory?" When we die? Do people really die and go to heaven? Where do the Scriptures teach any such pagan doctrine? It is at "the resurrection of the dead" that death is swallowed up in victory, and not one second earlier. Then, we will literally "be saved" as all the Scriptures teach.

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory?" Excuse me… ‘Oh grave?’ Oh really? Ten times the Holy Spirit inspired the Greek word "hades" to be used, and nine of those ten times the King James translates hades as "hell." But in this only solitary verse of I Cor. 15:55, they translated it "grave." Do you know why? I’ll tell you why. Because theologians wanted to protect their pagan doctrine of eternal punishment in hades at all cost, even if that meant fraudulently being inconsistent with the Greek word "hades."

The translators did not want the people to know that there is "victory" over their unscriptural pagan hell, that’s why! Read it:

"O death, where is your sting? O grave [hades] where is your victory?

The Greek "hades" is the Christian hell. But God is telling the whole world in this verse that hades will have no victory over the dead. The saints are redeemed from hades, as did David also attest:

"But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave [Heb: ‘power of sheol,’ and Strong defines the Hebrew word ‘sheol’ as the Greek word ‘hades’]…" (Psalm 49:15).

There is REDEMPTION from sheol/hades, and there will be NO VICTORY for sheol/hades, and this is no small part of the "Good News Gospel" which the Church of Babylon has hid from the eyes of all Christendom. You are now learning the Truth of God’s Scriptures, not the evil pagan fantasies of Christendom.

Now then, back to John 6 once more. Do all these Scriptures we just read in I Corinthians 15 (which totally contradict the "die and go to heaven" myth of Christendom) agree with what we were reading about "NOT DIE" and "by no means should be DYING FOR THE EON" in John 6:50 and 11:26? Absolutely.

There is a phrase in John 6 that Jesus repeats several times. A phrase that Christian theologians and preachers and teachers seem to be oblivious to, and yet, that phrase pin-points the exact time WHEN our "eonian life" will begin, and it agrees word for word with I Corinthians 15 and the rest of the Bible. Notice the verses of Scripture leading up to John 11:26 already discussed. What do the Scriptures tell us will happen "at the last day?" Verse 24 answers it

"Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).

The "last day" is the "the resurrection" from the dead. Next notice how Jesus answered her:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in Me, though he were dead [Margin reads: ‘may die’], yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [Gk: ‘should by no means be dying for the eon]. Believe you this?" (Verses 25-26).

Now if everyone reading this in the King James does not see a blatant contradiction, then they must be blind. Notice what the King James says:

[1] If someone believes in Christ and then dies, yet shall he live, contradicts:

[2] If someone believes in Christ, he will never die.

Am I going to fast for any one?

I apologize for the length of these rather technical sections on the Scriptures, but I am trying to make it as simple as I can. We are now really getting down to the nuts and bolts; the nitty and the gritty of True Scriptural Doctrine. The Scriptures tell us that the Kingdom of the Heavens is like a treasure hid in a field. This parable tells us that the spiritual treasures of God’s Word must be sought after with great diligence. People don’t let treasures lying around in open fields for all to take at their leisure.

And remember it is God Who has hidden these spiritual treasures. The Church does not believe that these treasures are hidden at all. That is why they are deceived by their unscriptural belief that the Bible is to be taken "literally," and that everything is only understood in "context, context, context." They refuse to believe that Jesus spoke in parables to hide the meaning of His teachings. They refuse to believe that it is God Himself who deceives the false prophets:

"And if the prophet be deceived when he has spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet" (Ezek. 14:9).

Stay with it. Don’t give up, thinking that this is too complicated. Read it over and over and over again, and it will begin to show crystal clear.

PAUL KNEW THAT DECEASED BELIEVERS ARE DEAD

Let’s be clear that the believing saints of Paul’s day who had previously passed away, were absolutely dead when Paul speaks of them.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive [How can they be made alive if as John 11:26 says in the King James, that those in Christ ‘never die?’]. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s [These are those who belong to and believe in Christ. But when are we told this ‘afterward’ will be? At the time of the death? No. Let’s read it…] at His coming" (I Cor. 15:22-23).

And just when is this "resurrection of the dead" for the saints who "are Christ’s?" We read it above. Martha said it: "at the last day." And so the phrase "at the last day," and "at His coming," are one and the same event.

Where do we read in Scripture that at death or in death we "shall put on immortality?" Or that at death or in death we will, "be like Him?" Or where do we read that "to be absent from the body IS to be present with the lord" There is no such Scripture. That Scripture is virtually always misquoted. These things do not happen at death or in death or immediately after death. Yes, it is true that, "We have this treasure in earthen vessels…," but it is not the fullness of what we shall be.

We already read that:

"…ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the EARNEST [the ‘earnest’ is the down payment or interest only] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13a & 14).

The word "until" is a time word meaning "indicating the point reached"—Strong’s Greek Dictionary. Well when do the Scriptures clearly tell us this "point is reached?" Certainly not at death, in death, or shortly after death. No, here is the clear Scriptural truth as to when our indicated point of redemption is reached and we will finally be fully "like Him," not as an earnest or down payment, but rather paid in full.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be [If not now, when? At or in death? No…]: but we know that when He shall APPEAR, we shall BE LIKE HIM: for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2).

There is our answer. So much for the pagan theory about immortal souls flying off to heaven at death.
Now back to John 6 once more. So when then are those who are said to "have eternal [Gk: ‘eonian’] life," really given eonian life in full? When they die, at their death, as orthodoxy teaches? The reason John could give us the answer in I John 3:2 is because John heard it first hand himself directly from Jesus Christ Himself. In fact, Jesus told them when this event would be four separate times.

[1] "And this is the Father’s will which has sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again [At the resurrection from the DEAD] at the last day" (John 6:39).

[2] "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on Him, may have everlasting [‘eonian’] life [When? Now? At their death? NO…] and I will raise him up [At the resurrection from the DEAD] at the last day" (John 6:40).

[3] No man can come to Me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him: and I will raise him up [At the resurrection of the DEAD] at the last day" (John 6:44).

[4] Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal [Gk: ‘eonian’] life; and I will raise him up [At the resurrection of the DEAD] at the last day" (John 6:54).

John was fully aware of the true facts regarding their own death and when and what event they would be raised from the dead. Did John himself believe that he would "never die" as the translators pervert God’s Word in the very gospel account attributed to John in Chapter 11:26? No. Let’s read Johns own account of his own death.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee… another shall gird thee, and carry thee where you [Peter] would not. This spoke He, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, He said unto him, Follow me" (John 21:18).

Did not Peter believe in Christ so that according to the King James wording in John 11:26 he "…shall never die?" NO. Notice that Jesus Himself signified "…by what death he [Peter] should glorify God." Continuing…

"Then Peter, turning about sees the disciple whom Jesus loved [that’s John] following: which also leaned on the breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrays you? Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus said unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? Follow you Me.

Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple [John] should not die: [But was this saying abroad true? No is wasn’t.] yet Jesus said NOT unto him, He shall not die [There it is: Jesus did NOT say that John would "not die." Jesus didn’t say it here, and nether did He say it back in Chapter 11:26 either]: but, if I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you?"

Here then we have a verse that plainly states that Jesus never said that John would not die. And if John, Christ’s favorite Apostle, would die, then who pray tell would be those so highly qualified in John 11:26, who would "never die?" Everyone dies, but the Elect will not die [into, for, or through the eon].

Did John in fact live until Jesus would "come?" Why yes He did. Many years later, in the spirit, John did indeed see Jesus come:

"And I [John] saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True… And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword that with it He should smite the nations; and He shall rule them with a rod of iron… And He has on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS…" (Rev. 19:11-16).

John indeed, did tarry till he saw Jesus come. Any questions? God doesn’t lie; the Scriptures don’t lie; but sometimes the translators do make mistakes. Jesus never said to anyone ever that they "shall never die."

Listen to what God says through Ezekiel:

"…for why will ye DIE, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the DEATH of him that DIES, says the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and LIVE ye" (Ezek. 18:31b & 32).

Can we not see that God contrasts life with death, not life with ETERNAL TORTURE IN FIRE? Why would God be so concerned over them "dying," if what in reality was going to happen to them was that they would "be tortured eternally in a hell fire?" Is there anyone out there who has his brain in gear while I am giving you all of these hundreds of Scriptural truths?

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