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Adam and Eve were NEVER perfect and were born into sin.

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broken:

--- Quote from: Nelson ---Hi Brandon,

Nothing to do with this topic, just wanted to say nice to see you back again.

Hope all is well with you and yours

Grace and peace

Nelson
--- End quote ---


Likewise.

Thank you Nelson.  Good to see you as well.

Brandon

broken:

--- Quote from: nightmare sasuke ---
--- Quote from: broken ---
--- Quote from: rvhill ---
--- Quote from: broken ---I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect.  Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:

If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).  

Am I right in my assessment?

Brandon
--- End quote ---


The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.
--- End quote ---


1. Jesus had to be perfect...otherwise his sacrifice is invalidated.

2. Further than that, innocence is perfection.  Innocence must be sinlessness, which is perfection.

Brandon
--- End quote ---



First of all, being innocent (having no knowledge of good and evil) is the antithesis of being in the image of God. We are being made in God's image (Genesis 1:27), and to be in his image, we must have knowledge of good and evil:
--- End quote ---


Your definition of innocence is flawed.  Innocent means not guilty of transgression of a given set of laws or rules.  There I rest my case with innocence.  Until this fundamental, foundational definition is fixed, there is no point in addressing the further arguments.

Brandon

nightmare sasuke:
I thought by the word innocence you were implying "Lack of knowledge or understanding; ignorance" (Dictionary.com). Sorry about that.

Either way, Adam and Eve were not created innocent in the sense you used the word. Adam and Eve did not disobey God's law in an obvious or specific manner in the very beginning, but they had already disobeyed God's law in their hearts (remember...what Jesus said about hearts?) by lusting the fruit. For from the beginning they were created from dust, with hearts. Remember what Jesus said about hearts? They always possessed natural sin (nakedness) but they just didn't realize it until after they ate from the tree. We can’t put on clothes, until we realize we’re naked.

You should try to address my points, nevertheless, and in spite of my misunderstanding of how you intended the word innocence to be interpreted.

Joey Porter:
I have not read every single post in this thread, so I apologize if this information was already given.

What I want to point out is that Adam and Eve became aware of their nakedness after they ate from the tree.  And their realization of their nakedness is what made them ashamed.  It was not the fact that they had disobeyed that caused them to feel shame.  

It's important to remember that Adam and Eve were created naked, so in essence, they were created in a shameful state.  It was their disobedience which opened up their eyes to the nakedness that they already had.

nightmare sasuke:
I agree, Joey Porter.

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