I need an educated teacher

[Nickreading1984]

So here's some of the questions I need answered

So, I brought universalism before Darwin Fish and he shot it down pretty quick. I wanted to establish contact with one of his students because his videos tend to be a lot longer than they need to be. I figured I'd just run this stuff past you in point form. I'd appreciate a VERY straight-forward answer. Ray's videos and such wander all over the place.

1) In Ray's video series "Do you fear God?" He concludes by saying, repeatedly, that he does not. Isn't that blasphemy? Isn't it repeatedly stated in the scriptures that one should fear God? Fear God and keep his commandments for this is man's all?
-2 corinthians 5:11
"Knowing, therefore the TERROR of the lord"

2) What do you do with verses like this:
- Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake
Some to everlasting life
Others to shame and everlasting contempt

Doesn't everlasting mean it'll last forever?

-Revelation 22:11
He who is unjust, let him be unjust still

-Matthew 25:41
"Into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels"

-Jeremiah 20:11
"Their everlasting confusion will NEVER be forgotten"


3) Ray says that people will be able to repent while experiencing "Hell". I think I've found at least one verse that says otherwise
-Proverbs 1:28
"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer"
It seems wisdom is saying that there will be no repentance in Hell

4) About Lazarus and the rich man:
Ray says it's part of a five-part-parable; but I've heard it argued that
a) even if it were a parable, Parables are true stories that have parallel meanings. If Jesus says that there was a certain rich man and someone says "No there wasn't" you're calling Christ a liar.
b) It actually wasn't part of a 5-part parable. He told a couple parables to the masses and then, to his disciples and to the pharisees, he talked about the law and the prophets and then talked about divorce. What was parabolic about that?

5) explain the whole "aonian" thing as briefly as possible. the following is from atruechurch.info How can you read that and tell me that the torment won't be eternal?
They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Some may want to argue over words (1 Timothy 6:4) and argue against the words "forever and ever." The Greek words translated, "forever and ever," in Revelation 20:10 are tous aiônas tôn aiônôn. These same exact words are used for God's eternal glory (Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21; 1 Peter 4:11; 5:11; Revelation 1:6; 5:13; 7:12), for Christ's eternal living, never ever to experience death again (Revelation 1:18), for God who lives forever and ever (Revelation 4:9-10; 10:6; 15:7), for Christ's eternal reign (Revelation 11:15), for eternal smoke (Revelation 19:3), and the eternal reign of the saints (Revelation 22:5).



-How can you read that and tell me that the torment won't be eternal?

[Kat]

Hi Nickreading1984,

Question number 1) 1John 4:18  There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

2) Here is one of Ray's emails (there are numerous other on this topic):   It matters not what "virtually all Greeks" believe today regarding ancient words of the past. The question is, How were they used and understood at the time of the writing of the Greek Scriptures?
    Is there anywhere in Classical Greek literature, for example, where "aion" and later "aionios" meant "eternity" or "endless time?"  No, no there isn't.  People send me "translations" of Classical Greek in which the Greek "aionios" is translated into the English "eternal" as PROOF that this word means and MEANT eternal in the past. Oh really?  You might just as well quote to me the the King James Bible if one thinks such nonsense is proof.  They try to show that the Greek gods were "eternal." Excuse me, but THE GREEK GODS COULD DIE!!  Didn't Zeus KILL his own father?
     
    Or better yet is when someone shows me a modern dictionary definition of such words as "timeless" or "ageless" and suggests that these words mean eternity. Where did these dictionaries get their definitions for such words? From THEOLOGIANS, that's where.  And these are the ONLY cases in dictionaries where the suffix "-less" means "more."  "Ageless" is LESS THAN AN AGE, not eternity. Something that is "timeless" is not eternal, but rather HAS NO TIME. And this is because "No adjective can take on a different or greater meaning that the noun from which it is derived."  An "age" is never suggested to be "eternity" in Scriptures. In fact, the very concept of eternity is foreign to the Scriptures. Instead we have phrases such as "has NO END," and "immortality."
     
    As for there being no Greek scholars who believe that aions are not ages, but eternity, just read my paper on "Is EVERLASTING Scriptural" in which I cite many Greek and Hebrew Scholars who understand perfectly well that aionios never meant "eternal" in ancient Greece. http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3195.0.html
     
3) Here is another translation (GNB): Pro 1:28  Then you will call for wisdom, but I (wisdom) will not answer. You may look for me (wisdom) everywhere, but you will not find me (wisdom).

4) Mat 13:13  This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

5) Here is another email: Yes, of course, I knew exactly what Mr. Hagee meant by "forever and forever and forever." He is saying that when the Bible says "forever," it really means: "forever and forever and forever and forever and forever and forever....eternally."  But that is not what "forever" means in the Bible. If "forever" means eternity, then what sense is there in adding eternities on top of eternities? There is only one eternity.  There is no such phrase as "for ever and ever" in the Greek manuscripts. It is "aions of the aions" or "ages of the ages."  It is not ages "and" ages, nor is it ages "upon" ages, nor is it ages "after" ages. It is genitive and it must be translated "ages OF the ages," which has absolutely nothing to do with eternity.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7863.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Less time copying and pasting from other websites and more time actually reading what is written here, in the Word of God and praying to the Lord for eyes and ears.

God be with you,

Alex

[Ian 155]

Hey Nick - We all had similar questions,

1] dont be offended if answers come across a 'little in your face" this is going to stop your quest for the truth
2] go and check out the papers that Ray Has written
3] and keep asking and submitting questions
5]You did not arrive by accident

regarding you questions, Kat summarized all the answers, now you need to go and study them - Ask the lord to open up the scriptures to you as the disciples did

be blessed as you discover the truths of Gods word

[Nickreading1984]

Ian 155: I'm not offended by things coming across as in my face. I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake. I'd really just like it if one of Ray's personal students could get in touch with me via E-mail.

Kat: The other translation of not finding wisdom anywhere doesn't make wisdom any less elusive after destruction and calamity (which I'm told means Hell). Also, if it means "Ages of the ages" what the heck does that mean?

Everyone: thanks for your help. I'm gonna need loads more.

-Nick

[Kat]

An age -  1 : the length of time during which a being or thing has lived or existed 2 : the time of life at which some particular qualification is achieved; esp : majority 3 : the latter part of life 4 : a long time 5 : a period in history  (Merriam-Webster)

So the the expression ages of the ages means multiplied ages/time periods.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Ian 155: I'm not offended by things coming across as in my face. I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake. I'd really just like it if one of Ray's personal students could get in touch with me via E-mail.

Kat: The other translation of not finding wisdom anywhere doesn't make wisdom any less elusive after destruction and calamity (which I'm told means Hell). Also, if it means "Ages of the ages" what the heck does that mean?

Everyone: thanks for your help. I'm gonna need loads more.

-Nick

By God mate...

Being destroyed or a state of destruction is not the end of all things.

There is redemption for those that are destroyed.

As ray pointed out many times before;

"The word translated "lost" is the Greek word "apollumi" which is translated "LOST," "PERISHED," and "DESTROYED."  Jesus Christ said that He is come to SAVE all those who are "apollumi"--destroyed, perished, and lost."

Jesus came TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST [apollumi ->>> DESTROYED!]" (Mark 18:11;  Luke 19:10).

We are not going to fight your battles for you. Stop trying to wrestle a serpent. You're wasting your time and your breathe and in the end it is all vanity.

All the answers you seek, all the ways in which to declare the reason for your hope to the men who ask it of you will come in time, God's time.  You won't convince anyone of anything and you certainly won't turn anyone by shoving this information down there throats. There is a reason paul said; "Be ready to give an answer for the reason of your hope to those who ASK you."

ASK you for it. Don't go looking for fights or to trying to argue. You have so much to learn and like the rest of us, you'll learn the hard way.

God be with you,

Alex

P.S. Calamity does NOT mean hell [Hades/Shaol] , it's the same word translated from/as EVIL, It means evil. God created "Calamity" remember? Isaiah declared it.

[ICXCNIKA]

I'd appreciate a VERY straight-forward answer. Ray's videos and such wander all over the place.

Here's a "straight answer" for you... Stop trying to argue about things that you clearly do not yet understand, especially, with those who are vessels of dishonor. If you were truly seeking out the Treasures in the Field for TRUE Spiritual growth....You would know that Ray's videos absolutely wander NOT! But, are actually, in fact bursting with profound Scriptural wealth and direction.

Start with Ray's TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ...Study these principles constantly and pray without cease....and you will take to the LIVING WATER like a fish to the sea. We've all been where your at now, but, please understand...debating only strokes an intellectual vanity, and like religion can only offer, at best, a temporary hysterical revolution within the listener, one of which is easily blown this-way-and-that-way by the winds of doctrine or scientific inquiry. Sincerely what ALL OF OUR FOCUS needs to be on...  is JESUS CHRIST, in whom is found the ONLY TRUE SPIRITUAL REGENERATION. Peace to you Nick. 

[cjwood]

...I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake.

nick, what the heck do you mean by the portion of your statement i bolded above???  the talking with darwin fish part i understand, but "for zeus' sake" has me stumped.  are you referring to the zeus of the pagans?

claudia

[ICXCNIKA]

...I'm talking with Darwin fish, for Zeus' sake.

nick, what the heck do you mean by the portion of your statement i bolded above???  the talking with darwin fish part i understand, but "for zeus' sake" has me stumped.  are you referring to the zeus of the pagans?

claudia

Claudia, I believe he only meant it as a figure of speech, in replace of taking the Lord's name in vain.

[Nickreading1984]

Claudia: It's just a Joke. It's like saying "For Ch***t's sake, only not offensive. It's an expletive.

Alex & Metamic: You say that debate is pointless and all that, and I appreciate the firmness of your tones, but doesn't Jude 3 instruct the faithful to contend for the faith?

I'm still really worried that all this stuff is too good to be true. I admit right now: I'm double-minded as all get-out. I wake up agnostic, scare myself into believing in Hell (because you'll go there if you don't believe in it, don'cha know) and then come here to see... I don't know... if I can just prove to myself it's not there.

I'm a friggin' mess.

-Nick

[cjwood]

thanks for the explanation nick.  glad i checked rather than just assumed.  i can relate to the "friggin' mess" feeling you mentioned.  i remember after reading the bt website the first time about 7 yrs ago all i could do was say out loud, "oh my God, oh my God, oh my God" repeatedly after each new article i read.  i was raised all my life in the southern baptist tradition of men and i could not believe what i was reading.  i mean, how could this all be true??  it was so opposed to everything i had ever learned in church. 

now i say, "thank you God, thank you God, thank you God" repeatedly.  nothing God does is by chance nick.  nothing.  no thing.  ever. 

i hope you will linger on the bt website and forum so you can continue to read and study the many Truths of the Holy Scriptures contained here.  i believe that if you do so, one day you will come to truly understand the uselessness of debate on Scriptural and Spiritual matters.  if you are ever approached and need to contend for the faith which God has given you, His Spirit will supply the words to speak so that God is glorified.  not you, not the other person, just God. 

claudia

[ICXCNIKA]

only not offensive. It's an expletive.

Your discretion is appreciated.

Alex & Metamic: You say that debate is pointless and all that, and I appreciate the firmness of your tones, but doesn't Jude 3 instruct the faithful to contend for the faith?

Is that verse addressing our "struggle" with other people's opinions? I don't think so.
We are to mortify "our flesh" - "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13 )

- We are to bring our (own) flesh into submission. What's the value of winning a debate?  First, you have to calm your own storm before you can possibly have a leg to stand on against any detractors of the FAITH.   

study this verse a few hours "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:2)

I'm still really worried that all this stuff is too good to be true. I admit right now: I'm double-minded as all get-out. I wake up agnostic, scare myself into believing in Hell (because you'll go there if you don't believe in it, don'cha know) and then come here to see... I don't know... if I can just prove to myself it's not there.

I'm a friggin' mess.

Brother, just Pray and read through all of the material on the main site, and also all of the emails to Ray, and I'm confident that with time you will find harmony and grow spiritually.

all this stuff is too good to be true.

Now, you know why it's called "THE GOOD NEWS" 

John from Kentucky is absolutely correct when he says  "Study the articles here.  Don't take Ray's words and teaching alone.  Study the scriptures he cites, and see that the witness of two or three scriptures opens to you the scriptural truths in all things, all as guided by the Great Sovereign God Who created all things, and Who will never accept failure of any kind."

Like I stated earlier, start with Ray's TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD. It truly is a key to Scriptural understanding.

You're here asking questions, so you're already heading in the right direction.
Brother, don't fear the pagan "hell", or any of that nonsense. But, also don't "just believe" to get a "reward" or some golden ticket to enter into some Star-Trek like utopian "heaven-planet" .... But, LOVE your CREATOR because HE Loved you first. HE created everything, and everyone. "we -- we love HIM, because HE -- HE first loved us;" (1 John 4:19)

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of all thy soul, and out of all thy strength, and out of all thy understanding, and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27)

[ICXCNIKA]

now i say, "thank you God, thank you God, thank you God" repeatedly.  nothing God does is by chance nick.  nothing.  no thing.  ever. 

i hope you will linger on the bt website and forum so you can continue to read and study the many Truths of the Holy Scriptures contained here.

Amen Claudia! And Nick, I also hope that you will continue to read and study here.

[Dave in Tenn]

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

This is probably the most concise explanation of the use of 'aions' or 'eons' and its derivatives on B-T.

[Kat]

Hi Nick,

I'm still really worried that all this stuff is too good to be true. I admit right now: I'm double-minded as all get-out. I wake up agnostic, scare myself into believing in Hell (because you'll go there if you don't believe in it, don'cha know) and then come here to see... I don't know... if I can just prove to myself it's not there.

Hell is a man made doctrine that is suppose to scare you into complying with the rest of the church doctrines.

Now in order to prove the truth of the Scriptures, will require effort on your part, a lot of effort. You have laid out before you here numerous articles that will help you build a solid foundation of understanding, but it will take quite a bit of time for you to study through them and meditate on it all, to let this truth take root. What it takes is pray, study, meditation and more pray. It's a process and there are no short cuts.

So if you really want to have understanding, then get away from the confusion of Babylon and start studying 

Mat 13:44  The kingdom of heaven (truth, love and joy and all the fruits of the Spirit) is like unto a treasure hidden in the field; which a man found (it takes a lot of digging and work to get to it), and hid (in his heart); and in his joy he goeth and selleth all that he hath (because all the physical things in life are of no value to him any more), and buyeth that field (because he wants it and never wants to loose it).

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Nickreading1984]

Thanks, guys. but, about the fear thing. Phil 2:12 says that believers should work out their salvation with fear and trembling. I know perfect love drives out all fear, but Ecc 12:13 still COMMMANDS to fear God and keep his commandments.

I can't help but think I'm talking to a bunch of vipers, of whom it can be said that there is no fear of God before their eyes (romans 3:18)

I'm pretty sure God still wants us to fear him and I don't see how you can without believing in Eternal Hellfire

-Nick

[Craig]

I can't help but think I'm talking to a bunch of vipers, of whom it can be said that there is no fear of God before their eyes (romans 3:18)

Fear of God is an Old Testament expression for Respect and Reverence for God. And is said to be the very beginning of knowledge Proverbs 1:7 and Job 28:28.

People without God are spiritually dead and produce bad fruit on a path of destruction.

Nick you are pulling one scripture out of the whole book and basing doctrine on it.  You need an understanding of all scripture and 2 or 3 witnesses to any one particular scripture to claim it as a truth.  You also must study the meaning of the words in scripture.  This is not a simple, or easy process as there is 2-3 thousand years between what was written and what was finally translated.  If you really believe God is going to burn you and your loved ones in hellfire for eternity then go for it.  I've been where you are and it is not a fun place, and goes against the good news that Jesus talked about.  Nowhere in scripture do I read you must believe in hellfire to be saved, but maybe you do.

Craig

[onelovedread]

[Ray Replies]

Dear Michael:

You ask: "Why would GOD force a person, that by his own will and lifestyle chose to live apart from GOD, to live with GOD for Eternity? Would that be Heaven for that individual?"

ANSWER:  Your question ASSUMES things that aren't Biblically true. Did you ever live a lifestyle APART from God? Do you now live a lifestyle WITH God? How did that transition come about?  Did you ALL ON YOUR OWN, one day come to decide that you wanted to live WITH God as opposed to APART from God?  Did you make that choice, without a cause, and INDEPENDENTLY of God's supernatural intervention? I don't have to ask, because I already know the answer, and the answer will be the same for all non-believers in the future.

Paul tells us that "NOT ONE is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11).

No one seeks God until God calls them to begin seeking. Jesus Christ plain stated that

"NO ONE CAN come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be DRAWING HIM" (John 6:44 & 65)

I fully realize that most of Christendom including such greats as Billy Graham absolutely DENY this Scripture, but it is true nonetheless. It stands to reason if only those who are called and chosen (by the way, only Jesus does the choosing also:

"NOT YOU choose Me, but I CHOOSE YOU..." John 15:16)

can only be such when God chooses, then those who are NOT CHOSEN OR CALLED of God CANNOT of their own will come to God, choose God, or decide to live a lifestyle WITH God and opposed to APART from God. There is the Scriptural answer to your questions.

God only chooses SOME now--not all. But it is His will to call and choose ALL MANKIND in the future.

"God WILLS that ALL mankind be SAVED..." (I Tim. 2:4).

And "Thy WILL BE DONE..." (Matt. 6:10).

For God IS LOVE (I John 4:, and

"LOVE NEVER FAILS...." (I Cor. 13:10).

So part of the problem is that your question contains errors of though. God doesn't FORCE people to worship Him, He opens up their minds and hearts so that they DESIRE TO WORSHIP HIM! 

Again, Paul was inspired of God to write:

"Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial [those in the heavens] and terrestrial [those on the earth] and subterranean [all the billions who will be resurrected from the dead and be judged at the white throne and purged by God who is a consuming FIRE, Rev. 20:11-15],and every tongue should be ACCLAIMING [this is a heart-felt voluntary acclamation] that Jesus Christ IS LORD [And NO ONE IS ABLE TO SAY 'LORD IS JESUS' EXCEPT BY HOLY SPIRIT!!], to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:9-11).

God desires, WILLS, and is quite capable of saving ALL OF HIS CREATURES. It is UNSCRIPTURAL to suggest that God won't save all: It is BLASPHEMY to suggest that He can't save all!

I hope this helps your understanding a little. Most Christians look at the NOW, the HERE, the PAST and PRESENT in deciding who GOT saved and who is GETTING saved. They fail utterly to look to the FUTURE when God sets His hand to save ALL.

Remember that thing about Passover, then the "waveshief"--Christ, then Pentecost, the "firstfruits," those who God is now calling of the nations?  Did we forget THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES AND THE LAST GREAT  DAY OF THE FEAST? The GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS?

God be with you as you submit to His calling and His will.

Sincerely,

Ray

[arion]

I'm pretty sure God still wants us to fear him and I don't see how you can without believing in Eternal Hellfire

-Nick

Nick,

What is your Father like.  If he is/was a harsh and evil man I suppose it's understandable that you might think that God is the same.  If you have a good father ask yourself if your dad wants you to be afraid of him or if your old enough to be a father yourself would you want your son to be afraid of you?  And would you want your son to respect and obey you only because he felt you were going to take a belt to him and whip him unmercifully?  If not, then how could you think a perfect and loving God (Who states in his written word that 'God is love' and 'Love never fails') would want you to obey and worship him because your terrified to death of him?  See what this 'hell' teaching of the church has done to you?