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Our irrefutable propitiation part 2
dean kevin heyes:
Hi lilitaienboi16 Ok let us be practical as we are but flesh, and so was our LORD ! From Johns verse you have upon yourself concluded that the linen clothes were about HIS body and the napkin/handkerchief/cloth/towel was wrapped about HIS whole head and the two were joined somehow about his neck ???? You would be wise to learn what Raymond N Rogers and Dr Petrus Soons and Fredrick Zugibe discoverd in there differant feilds of extensive research regarding this matter. Here is a scripture from Paul that I hold to when it comes to weighing evidence that could be of GOD 1 THESSALONIANS 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. GOD has allways provided us with irrifutable proof of his power, the Bible testifies to this, and its not the Shroud Of Turin that I speak of in my testomony,but something far greater, but it will take faith in GOD and his sovereignty to find it. Here is a verse I pray you learn PROVERBS 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. or prehaps this one and its in context if any theologians are spying on us ;D HEBREWS 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. GOD bless
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: dean kevin heyes on March 19, 2013, 08:30:34 PM ---Hi lilitaienboi16 Ok let us be practical as we are but flesh, and so was our LORD ! From Johns verse you have upon yourself concluded that the linen clothes were about HIS body and the napkin/handkerchief/cloth/towel was wrapped about HIS whole head and the two were joined somehow about his neck ???? You would be wise to learn what Raymond N Rogers and Dr Petrus Soons and Fredrick Zugibe discoverd in there differant feilds of extensive research regarding this matter. Here is a scripture from Paul that I hold to when it comes to weighing evidence that could be of GOD 1 THESSALONIANS 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. GOD has allways provided us with irrifutable proof of his power, the Bible testifies to this, and its not the Shroud Of Turin that I speak of in my testomony,but something far greater, but it will take faith in GOD and his sovereignty to find it. Here is a verse I pray you learn PROVERBS 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. or prehaps this one and its in context if any theologians are spying on us ;D HEBREWS 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. GOD bless
--- End quote ---
No that is not what I have concluded.
John 20:6-7 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
What the scripture John pointed out mentions is that there were two separate pieces of garments. A linen cloth for his body and another for the face which wrapped it.
There is no need or reason to speculate that they "two were joined somehow about his neck."
When it comes to matters of scripture and God's Word, I don't get along with the so called "experts" in the field. I'd much rather listen to a carpenter or believe what God has written.
God doesn't always provide us with "irrifutable proof" of His power, if He did, we wouldn't need the gift called faith. Making your quote of hebrews rather ironic. Also, Faith is not evidence as ray has pointed out before and that verse is incorrectly translated.
--- Quote ---Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance…
No it’s not. If it was the “substance” it wouldn’t be faith. Faith is either an assumption or a conviction that something is, that you can’t prove that it is. At least you can’t prove everything about it, maybe some aspect, but not all. Some of it must be accepted merely because it is being stated and you have confidence in the one whose doing the stating. That’s what faith is. So a better translation would be; “Now faith is a CONVICTION…” not the substance.
v. 1 …of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
No! My margin has conviction for "evidence." Theologians with 6 doctorate degrees will quote that, just like this, as that’s the way it is. But my center margin says it’s wrong. Logic should tell you it’s wrong.
It says “evidence”…. excuse me when you go in a court of law, when they present evidence... why do they present evidence in a court of law? Because they’re not going to accept anybody on faith, that’s why. They want the evidence, because when you have evidence, when you’ve got the smoking gun - the finger prints - no alibi - probable causer - I witnesses - security camera, that’s evidence. You don’t need faith. You convict the guy on evidence, you don’t need faith.
Faith is a conviction of these things that we hope for. Like Paul says, if you have them you don’t have to hope. These are the things we are still reaching for.
--- End quote ---
Here is a more proper rendering of that verse; "Heb 11:1 Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed;"
Again, welcome to the forums. Hope you stick around.
God be with you,
Alex
dean kevin heyes:
Hi Alex many thanx for the better translation, as in the context, I was referring to has even more a profound meaning. however you have erred by insinuating that Mr Rogers a Chemist and respected Thermal Analysis , Mr Soons an expert in Holography and Mr Zugibe a highly respected Forensic Pathologist based their opinions on John's verse ? And these men being the three witnesses I have provided, who did publicly attest that the linen clothes were those of our LORDS . As you have not impartialy tested the evidence, nor are you able, but assumed the findings of these men inconclusive, based what can only be your own perception, and then state publicly that which is contrary, makes you a False Witness! You would do well to heed PROVERBS 6:16-19. It will be futile for us to proceed in the debate of this matter, given the circumstances. And as this has little bearing on what I believe the desciples were not at liberty to discuss, has no consequence on my testimony, and therefor I shall make no further comment, so the floor is yours, mind you dont stick to it :P
Craig:
Dean, I think by your posts you seem to have several of what Ray has called "Idols of the heart". The thing about these idols is they never survive the weight of scriptures. For you to claim the shroud is authentic based on a few smart guys and their scientific analysis is foolishness on your part. Nobody can know for sure and if you take the scripture that is given on this subject as Alex and John showed you then it is doubtful that it is true.
Now to then claim the member who brought out scriptures showing the errors and have you call them a False Witness will not be tolerated. I think before you tell people what their faults are that you need to take a long look in the mirror. We all have our idols of the heart, and they always get us into trouble.
Craig
G. Driggs:
Hi Dean and welcome to the forum!
Jesus died before the soldier pierced him with the spear.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Joh 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
If you believe Jesus was real and have not seen Him you are blessed. You don't need physical proof like doubting Thomas.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Peace brah ;)
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