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Question that I seem to be thinking about

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GaryK:



I usually regret my posts after I make them.   For all I know others may feel the same way when they see a post by "Horseman".        They just don't seem as smart as everyone else's posts, but I'll do it anyway.




Roger,

Everything you've written.........I understand.   

Your point of view and your reasoning stands equal to my point of view and reasoning.  I've struggled with the matter for the better part of 5 years. You'd think after 5 years I'd just give up and say "to hell with it".  But I don't believe in hell.   


Kat writes of Ray, "It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY!"

Sounds pretty.  And that's all fine and well.   But man gets one lifetime of flesh.

When one "chooses wrongly" and the consequences of such a decision, or decisions, result in a lifetime of undesired consequences, not only for that particular person but for anyone who may be in a direct line to feel those consequences from choices that were made, it hardly makes any difference after the deed is done. Man gets--one-- ONE--(1)-- lifetime and the consquences of choices may be a lifetime, exactly, of remorse. Millions by millions make "choices" and live a lifetime of regret, all at God's behest?  Really?

It that's true then who reallys gives a s*it if God made the devil do it who then made the man do it?  One life, that's it.  That's not hard math and it isn't pretty either.   But it sure does sound like that's the way it is.  So just exactly how merciful is this God when man only gets one (1) life and can do NOTHING to rescend such terrible choice(s)?   

That's my question now after the hours, as Dave reminds us, we must spend drudging through the subject to come to agreement that God is in charge and we're not.

I'm coming to believe that in a matter such as this man truly does become an island, mentally speaking, and best it be so.  Man and God.  Alone.  You will struggle with this, and best it be that way to even begin to understand what is true and what is false. I'm beginning to believe maybe the struggle is worth it's weight in gold, even more so than the discovery.

Some get it, some don't.  Some SAY they get it, when they really don't.  And it usually shows in their words on differing posts from time to time. You've called that out. But they'll make a good show of convincing.


But I'm not on your side.   I don't have to be and here's why:

You can't have it both ways.    One can't say, "I believe in the sovereignty of God" but then say "we have LIMITED free will".   That's a really true contradiction and that APPEARS to be what you're saying.

I don't think it works that way Roger.  It's one or the other.

The struggle will, perhaps, bring you to this point:


Matthew 10 (Amplified Bible)

24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a servant or slave above his master.


John 14:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


John 19:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:



You're either for or against but you ain't gonna be in the middle because there is no middle, and wherever your mental boots stand, be it for or against, you can believe it's you and God in that very spot, alone.   And you will not be in control.   That much I do know.


Jesus is either the greatest bulls*hit artist ever created, fooling billions with more to come, or he's telling the truth. That part only you and God are going to discover.   You and God.  No-one else will be in the equation.


I'm getting to the point I don't even care if my will is free or not.  Decisions are decisions, what control do I have?

Just tell me how Jesus is going to do this biggie:


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

4 "and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes,"


Oh yea?   Does everyone get a "do-over"?

John from Kentucky:
Hi Horseman,

Yeah, everyone gets a do-over.

One major truth is that of the resurrection of the dead.  We don't just have this lifetime.

As Job said, "If a man die, will he live again?  All the days of my life will I wait until my change come.  You will call and I will answer."

So death is not the end of anything.  Death is sleep.  We will get a do-over until God decides we are O.K., then the last enemy to go will be death.

But you know this.

God's ways are sometimes hard to understand, but whether we understand them or not, He will always do things His way.

John

P.S.  I like those Scriptures you quoted.

lilitalienboi16:
Hi Roger,

I shared this in another post about accountability verse responsibility. I think it fits this theme of "choice" very well.


--- Quote ---It's very simple reg.

Because God created man practically a sinning machine, with a weak heart and because it takes spiritual strength to do what is right, man volunteers to sin on a daily basis. However, because he was created thus, God takes full responsibility by dying and one day redeeming all creation. This is God being responsible.

Now, when you decided to sin, YOU wanted to in your heart, God did not force you or make you sin. You absolutely wanted to commit that sin when you did therefor you are accountable. This is you being held accountable.

Two examples;

The earth is naturally dark on its own. It is devoid of light. Earth can be made to metaphorically represent man. The sun, which can be metaphorically analogous to God, is what shines and gives light to the earth. So long as the sun is near the earth will be filled with light. However, take away that light and the earth instantly becomes dark again. So much like the earth, there is nothing in man that inately gives him the ability to Shine (Do good/right), this is the power of God.

Now the example ray uses is one of a bible verse a pornography magazine.

Lets assume you have a man in a closed room and there is absolutely no one around and no one who will know what he does in that room. Now lets assume before him are these two books, one the Word of God and the other all things carnal in the form of pornography. Which book do you think this man will choose?

The porno of course because it takes spiritual strength to do what is good and open up the Word of God over the images of beautiful naked women! This is the state in which man was created, a very weak heart, subject to vanity, carnal etc.. and so God says, Hey! I'm not an idiot, I know I'm responsible for this so I'm dying for all these sins mankind will commit and I will change you.

Man however, when he chose to open up that pornography magazine, absolutely wanted to. No one forced him, no one made him do it, He really wanted to do it. He had every intention in his heart at that moment to do it and so he will be held accountable. This is accountability.

Though God may have brought about the circumstances (responsible) which put this man in this position to sin, the man absolutely wanted to sin in that moment which he commited the sin (accountable).

Does that help?

Its how I understand it and I think its exactly how it works.

God be with you,

Alex
--- End quote ---

Thread: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15006.msg133019.html#msg133019

Kat:

Hi Horseman,

You might get tried of hearing me on this subject, but I feel it is worth any and every effort and that is the point of these discussions, to try and help someone.

I think you are saying that all the suffering that some certainly do have in this life is too much and it's wrong for God to put this much on humans.

Well my signature Scripture is this...

James 4:14  whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

This lifetime that we have is but a breath in our existence... I believe this life's purpose is to give an experience in evil that we might have this backdrop, as dark and terrible as it is. But I believe it is absolutely necessary for comparative sake, we have to know evil in order to understand (by comparison) righteousness. And do realize that even all the evil that we have has limits. I mean the body just will take so much and it will die and the suffering ceases.

Now as you were saying, but we only have this one lifetime. Well what is the life in the next age then and after that as well? I believe the primary purpose for the next age is to rectify to all people what they experience in the age. Remember what Jesus said many times.

Luke 13:29  They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.
v. 30  And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."

I believe that this is a very simple way Jesus states there will be justice for all in the next age. We do not know what God has in store in the next age, but how can we think He cannot make all things right? How can you think He is incapable of that?

I will try a little analogy. When I have a bad tooth I go to the dentist (understand I hate to go and have my teeth worked on), but I do it even though I hate every min I'm sitting there having the work done. So was what the dentist did bad/evil for the suffering he caused me? Of course not, I needed to have it done. So did I enjoy it? Heck no, even though I wanted it done. That might not be a real good example to this discussion, but what I trying to say is that sometimes we have to do things that we do not enjoy at all for what it brings about.

I'm saying of course God does not enjoy what must be done here... but yes He did determined that this is the best way to produce the outcome He wants. To think that what we are going through now in this life (a vapor/breath) is too much... well I believe that beyond this life we will have endless life with God in glory. For the few a bit sooner than the rest.

I know God has graced me to accept this, which I'm so thankful for. But I will try to help anybody if I possibly can, because I believe this is vital to begin to really know our God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Dave in Tenn:
Been thinking about this for the past few days and want to add something I hope is encouraging.

Nobody should take anything said in this thread on the subject of the 'illusion' of free-will, or free-choice or free moral agency as meaning this truth is like some 'gnostic' knowledge hidden deep and only found by dividing the Hebrew letters in Ecclesiates chapter three by the Greek words in 1. Thessalonians chapter one or some other such freakishness.  That's not what Ray meant by "meditate on this for a long time". 

I think I can speak for others in saying that, when you 'see' it, you will wonder why it seemed so difficult.  One reason why it is so hard is because it certainly SEEMS like we make choices un-caused by anything else.  This can be 'taught' away.  There are other reasons why, though, and some of those require a change of heart.

I think once we are ready to at least 'consider' the possibility, it is both through Scripture AND living/proving that the sovereignty of God and the illusory nature of 'free-will/choice' come into focus.  Ray said it was in obedience (both successful and failure) we really learn the deeper things of God.  That very much matches my experience, and the experience of Peter (and all the others) in his denial of Christ and subsequent "power" to declare Him openly. 

I'd only add that sometimes this knowledge comes in stages, and we are not all in identical places in this transformation.  How 'deep' this understanding is in us varies.  It's the best possible start to understand that the sovereignty of God ensures the Salvation of all.  Ultimately, the Light will shine on us all, and when it does, it will be 'sudden'...and worth it.



 

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