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Question that I seem to be thinking about
Dave in Tenn:
It's beyond question that we make choices. We even have a will of our own. Neither is 'free' from what caused them.
Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be a part of the cause of his reader desiring and choosing the right thing. Both the will to choose and the ability to choose and follow through are subject to the influence of God on our lives. Even the fact that there is a 'good choice' and a 'bad choice' is because of God. Besides all that, the fact that we exist to make the choice is because of Him. All of this creation is because of Him. Without Him there is absolutely nothing. No thing. Nothing at all.
What choice we make is also the very and only choice He knew before hand we would make.
He didn't create us so He could judge us for our choices (contrary to what is taught in most churches), though He does and will judge every man. Judgment itself is for a purpose. We're not simply "predestined" but predestined to good works. When He's ready for us to do them, He gives us both the desire and the power to do them so that no man may boast. He is the One working IN us and through us just as He works in all and through all to do His purpose.
I'm quite happy to be like a marionette. I know that some of the 'strings' that control me are short, some are long, some are internal, some are external, some are invisible, and some are visible. I'm especially happy because if my choices were strictly up to me, I would NEVER get to what God is creating me to be. First I must know that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. But had He not revealed himself, nobody would know He exists. Had He not loved me first, I could not love Him. Had He not chosen me, I could not choose Him. I'm just a beast, a creature, a vessel, a lump of clay, a pot being spun according to His purpose.
I'm also happy because some of the 'strings' which control me now will be (and are being) cut, because He is also Lord over Satan and his ministers.
I am NOT a marionette because I am not made out of wood or plastic I am a human being with a mind (which must receive input to make decisions) and a heart (which must be changed from it's stony natural state into a soft one) under His influence.
The absolute sovereignty of God is what ensures the salvation of all and the birthing of sons and daughters to create His ever expanding family.
Anyway, as Ray said often, meditate on this truth for a few thousand hours and it will be clearer to you. Hang in there, and welcome to the forum.
Gina:
--- Quote ---Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing.
--- End quote ---
Exactly.
Dave in Tenn:
I don't want to argue either, but just speak a bit to your ice-cream analogy. It may well be pretty inconsequential whether the boy chooses chocolate or strawberry. Maybe if he's allergic to strawberries it would be more obvious. But we don't know what is consequential...the Father does, seeing as how He is involved in everything.
Though his choice of flavors is just as "caused" as any other choice he makes, the Lord God is molding him even through that, as silly as that might sound.
Some things we DO know are consequential, though we're not born that way 100%. We have to learn. The message of scripture isn't whether the choice of chocolate or strawberry is inconsequential or not. The message of Scripture is "Don't worry about anything."
Choose your flavor and don't worry. Follow God when you've learned His will. Don't worry. He is able to make us stand.
RogerH:
--- Quote from: " Shorty " on April 24, 2013, 12:09:39 AM ---
--- Quote ---Ray says "Always do the right thing" because he is hoping to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing.
--- End quote ---
Exactly.
--- End quote ---
In this post Gina you are quoting Dave, so that means that both of you agree that Ray wants to be the cause of his reader choosing the right thing. Then in your other posts you try to tell me that it is impossible for anyone to make choices on their own. Still in other posts I read on the forum, you are dissing people for doing things that you don't agree with. All I have to say about it is what's the use?????? If everything we do is scripted by God, then why even discuss any of this? In fact, why does God put us through all of this if He completely controls every outcome?? Why doesn't He just make us completely subservient to Him and choose for everyone to only do good things rather than evil things? Yes, I know some believe it's to teach us eventually to desire good rather than evil, but if everything we do, say or think is controlled, what is there to learn? Why should we or Ray or Paul or Jesus or anyone ever disagree with anything that anyone does if it's all God causing it to happen?? It seems to me that we should just grin and bear it since we have no hope of ever changing any of it.
Just to set the record straight, I do agree with Dave's post above. I never said that God is not entirely in control or that He doesn't put us through everything that we go through, only that I believe that He does give us the authority to choose certain things. I believe the Truth is much simpler than most of us make it out to be. I believe that God has predetermined the outcome of all things, like Dave said, "The absolute sovereignty of God is what ensures the salvation of all and the birthing of sons and daughters to create His ever expanding family." I also agree that only a few are called by Him in this lifetime, and He judges those few to see which ones will be "chosen". I believe that not one of us can do anything good because our hearts are evil all the time. I believe all of these things, but I also believe that He gives us the choice to make as to whether we will heed His call. That doesn't mean we can accomplish any of it on our own, but we must deny ourselves (our evil hearts) every day and pray for Him to change us. The word tells me I should present myself a living sacrifice to God. That means to me that I should come before Him humbly, deny all of my selfish desires and say, "what's next Lord"? "Teach me Your ways", "Renew my evil heart", "Have your way with me Lord." If we don't have the choice to accept the word and a desire to want to obey then how can we be held accountable for NOT obeying?
You say in your post that “we volunteer to sin”. Now I would like to ask you, If you cannot make a choice on your own and God causes everything, then how in the world do you “volunteer” to sin??
Ok, now I’m beginning to feel like you Gina, what’s the use of wasting all my time typing this if I can accomplish nothing by it? I guess I will go and do some more reading.
God bless,
Roger
Kat:
Hi RogerH,
This idea must be one of the hardest concepts to really understand. Though all we do is ultimately causes by things most times we do not even realize, the fact is 'we' do, say and think what we do our self. It comes into our mind and will to voluntarily do what we choose to do/say. A robot/puppet does not have the capacity to think things through and make a decision like we do.
For now in this age we are having an "experience in evil" to form a backdrop, a base, so that when the truth is finally revealed we have a comparison and can see a real difference. These experiences that we are having by living and making choices builds within us a character, this is necessary for a base foundation that we all need, it's like the clay the potter uses. Once we have something to work with and yes our carnality always makes us wicked to start with, but God will take it, for a very few now, for most later and shape it into something worth while. It is a process, it seems long and daunting, but it will product all of these unique individuals that will make up a glorious family as a outcome.
Here are a few more excerpts that may help.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=9822.0 -----------
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----------------
[Ray Replies]
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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