> General Discussions
Question that I seem to be thinking about
RogerH:
Thanks Shorty and Kat for your responses.
Shorty said “We cannot possibly have free choice because we DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING! haha! Now, if we know everything and understand all that will happen if we choose this or the other thing, and still choose to do evil, then, what we really are is plain stupid. Or evil. Take your pick.” There is no pick to it Gina. The Bible declares we are BOTH!
OK Kat, from what you say, we are merely puppets of God the ventriloquist. He takes us out of the box, sticks His hand in our back and absolutely controls our every movement, word, thought and reaction, and when he is finished with us he sticks us back in the box? I can completely agree that He brings about every situation in our lives and we are helpless to control any of that. He brings about good, bad, disease, poverty, good fortune, bad fortune, anything He chooses to teach us the lessons He wants us to learn. All I am saying is that we have the choice of how we will respond to those situations. No I don’t think we can make any eternity changing choices. It’s kind of like we give our children the choice of whether they want a vanilla ice cream cone or a chocolate one. Whichever choice they make will not alter the other events of the day one iota, and will have absolutely no impact on where they go to school. Now, the child gets to decide what flavor they want, but they also have a choice to make as to whether they even want an ice cream cone. So then if they decide they want the cone, they make their choice and get to enjoy it. If they decide they do not want a cone it still doesn’t change the outcome of their day, but they probably won’t get an ice cream cone until you decide they will.
Maybe that’s a little silly to you, but I’m being very serious here. If God makes every decision in our lives and even controls our every action, then we are merely puppets on a string. How can any of us be held accountable for our actions that we have no choice as to what they are to begin with? That’s like you choosing the clothing your son will wear to school tomorrow and punishing him because the school sends him home for wearing inappropriate clothing. That doesn’t make sense to me Kat. I know God is sovereign, but I think we can carry that a little too far. I know people who use that as an excuse to continue to sin in whatever capacity they desire. “You know God will make me quit that when He’s ready”! I’m not real good at quoting scripture, but I know that Paul said something like “should we use that as an excuse to continue in sin”? and then he continues with absolutely not! He exhorts us to abstain from evil appearances, and many other places he talks about things that we should or should not do. Even Jesus has instructions on what and what not to do as followers of Him. He says if we want to follow Him we must deny ourselves. He says that we must obey! In fact He says that the Holy Spirit will be given to those who obey. If we have absolutely no choice as to whether we will do any of these things then why would He tell us to do them? Then in the same breath, why will we be held accountable for NOT doing those things if we cannot do them no matter how much we want to?
I could go on and on, but I’m really not here to argue with you at all. I guess what it boils down to is what we believe to be the sovereignty of God. Here’s how I see it……. I believe that God has created lots of humans whom He desires to become His sons and daughters. I believe that He will accomplish what He has set out to do and ALL of His creation will indeed become His sons and daughters. I believe we are living in the “evil” age which God uses to teach us the difference between good and evil. I believe that we all ultimately enter into the Kingdom of God through our Lord Jesus. I believe that God has chosen those who will enter in at the end of this age and those who will not. I do believe however that the possibility exists that some of those that God has chosen to give the opportunity to enter in at the end of this age will make choices that will prevent them from being chosen AT THIS TIME! Thus, we are constantly reminded in His word that “Many are called, Few are chosen”. Doesn’t Ray teach that every parable that Jesus taught means exactly that?
So what consequences do our choices have? Nothing eternal! God has already predetermined all of that. EVERYONE will eventually make it. The only thing we can change with our decisions is whether we will be chosen at the end of this age or we will have to wait until later when God decides to clean us up from all of the bad decisions we made by putting us through the lake of fire.
After reading your response Kat, I felt like I didn’t make myself clear in my first post. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about and I have a lot more to learn. I am definitely open to that. Maybe I need to keep my mouth shut and continue reading and praying for His wisdom in this matter. Certainly there are those here who are much further along than I am and I truly appreciate the opportunity to be here to learn from them.
God bless,
Roger
John from Kentucky:
Jesus said that a bird does not fall to the ground without the Father's say.
If the Father controls the death of birds, then does He not also control the actions of all men?
Judas was compelled to betray Jesus. Peter did not want to be a rat fink and deny Jesus; he was compelled to deny Jesus; Jesus said Peter would deny Him even before the actual event.
The Scriptures say none are righteous, no not one. The Scriptures also say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
If any human had free choice or free will, would you not expect at least one human to have freely decided to do good? But since the Scriptures say none have done good, it then follows that God created us to disobey Him and sin. Sin is humanity's default position. Sin is what we do. When we do not sin, it is not us, but the Power of God that makes us do righteously.
All the credit for our good actions go to God. As Jesus said, there is none good but one---God.
lilitalienboi16:
Hi Shorty,
Your last reply is opened with "Hi Alex" but it appears you're talking to roger?
Just looking for clarification.
THanks!
Gina:
To you, Alex. You can call me Gina.
Gina:
--- Quote from: RogerH on April 23, 2013, 09:04:46 PM ---Thanks Shorty and Kat for your responses.
Shorty said “We cannot possibly have free choice because we DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING! haha! Now, if we know everything and understand all that will happen if we choose this or the other thing, and still choose to do evil, then, what we really are is plain stupid. Or evil. Take your pick.” There is no pick to it Gina. The Bible declares we are BOTH!
OK Kat, from what you say, we are merely puppets of God the ventriloquist. He takes us out of the box, sticks His hand in our back and absolutely controls our every movement, word, thought and reaction, and when he is finished with us he sticks us back in the box? I can completely agree that He brings about every situation in our lives and we are helpless to control any of that. He brings about good, bad, disease, poverty, good fortune, bad fortune, anything He chooses to teach us the lessons He wants us to learn. All I am saying is that we have the choice of how we will respond to those situations. No I don’t think we can make any eternity changing choices. It’s kind of like we give our children the choice of whether they want a vanilla ice cream cone or a chocolate one. Whichever choice they make will not alter the other events of the day one iota, and will have absolutely no impact on where they go to school. Now, the child gets to decide what flavor they want, but they also have a choice to make as to whether they even want an ice cream cone. So then if they decide they want the cone, they make their choice and get to enjoy it. If they decide they do not want a cone it still doesn’t change the outcome of their day, but they probably won’t get an ice cream cone until you decide they will.
Maybe that’s a little silly to you, but I’m being very serious here. If God makes every decision in our lives and even controls our every action, then we are merely puppets on a string. How can any of us be held accountable for our actions that we have no choice as to what they are to begin with? That’s like you choosing the clothing your son will wear to school tomorrow and punishing him because the school sends him home for wearing inappropriate clothing. That doesn’t make sense to me Kat. I know God is sovereign, but I think we can carry that a little too far. I know people who use that as an excuse to continue to sin in whatever capacity they desire. “You know God will make me quit that when He’s ready”! I’m not real good at quoting scripture, but I know that Paul said something like “should we use that as an excuse to continue in sin”? and then he continues with absolutely not! He exhorts us to abstain from evil appearances, and many other places he talks about things that we should or should not do. Even Jesus has instructions on what and what not to do as followers of Him. He says if we want to follow Him we must deny ourselves. He says that we must obey! In fact He says that the Holy Spirit will be given to those who obey. If we have absolutely no choice as to whether we will do any of these things then why would He tell us to do them? Then in the same breath, why will we be held accountable for NOT doing those things if we cannot do them no matter how much we want to?
I could go on and on, but I’m really not here to argue with you at all. I guess what it boils down to is what we believe to be the sovereignty of God. Here’s how I see it……. I believe that God has created lots of humans whom He desires to become His sons and daughters. I believe that He will accomplish what He has set out to do and ALL of His creation will indeed become His sons and daughters. I believe we are living in the “evil” age which God uses to teach us the difference between good and evil. I believe that we all ultimately enter into the Kingdom of God through our Lord Jesus. I believe that God has chosen those who will enter in at the end of this age and those who will not. I do believe however that the possibility exists that some of those that God has chosen to give the opportunity to enter in at the end of this age will make choices that will prevent them from being chosen AT THIS TIME! Thus, we are constantly reminded in His word that “Many are called, Few are chosen”. Doesn’t Ray teach that every parable that Jesus taught means exactly that?
So what consequences do our choices have? Nothing eternal! God has already predetermined all of that. EVERYONE will eventually make it. The only thing we can change with our decisions is whether we will be chosen at the end of this age or we will have to wait until later when God decides to clean us up from all of the bad decisions we made by putting us through the lake of fire.
After reading your response Kat, I felt like I didn’t make myself clear in my first post. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about and I have a lot more to learn. I am definitely open to that. Maybe I need to keep my mouth shut and continue reading and praying for His wisdom in this matter. Certainly there are those here who are much further along than I am and I truly appreciate the opportunity to be here to learn from them.
God bless,
Roger
--- End quote ---
Roger,
It's okay, we're all learning. (And yes, I was being sarcastic -- the bible declares we are clay in the Potter's hand and God's ways are past finding out, except for those to whom God reveals His mysteries.) It hasn't been easy for us either, you know. I know you were addressing Kat, but the thing I want to point out is that how in the world can we possibly have free choices (that is, that we makes choices that are free from causality)? We aren't puppets, because we volunteer to sin, but we volunteer to sin because we are held down under the LAW (forced, if you will) of sin and death. We have no choice but to obey the pulls of our carnal flesh/mind until we are set free only by the LAW of the spirit. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. It only appears that we have free choice, but when you think about it, we only have choices based on those options that are set before us. And the choices get narrower and narrower based on how we are shaped as children into adulthood by the parents we didn't choose, the schools we didn't choose to go to, and the opinions of the teachers that we didn't choose to hire, and the list goes on. Do we really have "freedom" of choice? I didn't choose where I'd be born, or which parents would raise me. Did you? Yes, God did say, "choose this day whom you will serve," and He said that knowing full well that the law NEVER made anyone righteous. For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,. There are people who struggle with sins that can't overcome and want to, but it is not their time! Yes, they would choose to change IF they could but they have to be SET FREE. Or do we set ourselves free? If we could set ourselves free -- then Christ died for nothing. People like you come along and claim that they can choose to do right. Oh really? Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil. It's one thing to say, I can't make myself want to do right, because that is basically what you're saying. Paul said that For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. Oh wretched (stupid, evil?) man that I am! Who will set me free from this body of death? And what was his answer? Jesus Christ. Thank God. But there are those who say, Yes, I am this way, and I can't help it and it's all God's fault I'm this way; and that's the wrong attitude to take. Completely wrong attitude. Instead, we should be beating our chests and saying, "Be merciful to me, a sinner!" And He will. In His time. In the right season. Every man in his own order. But we say we are robots and puppets because we get frustrated. Why is He still angry with us? And Paul says, Who are you to talk back to God? He will have mercy on whom He will, and that's just how it is.
It's okay. I know exactly how you feel. Don't give up! It will make sense. Just don't give up. Whenever we choose to do good and right, it's only and always when God grants us the ability to choose to do good, or to make it in the first resurrection. Only Jesus knows those who are His. We don't know that, only Jesus. If we've been given eyes to see, then we will see that we have one choice and that it's not optional, and that is to pray that God has mercy on us and grants us the ability to overcome. Everyday. We have to learn to pray, God, lead me not into temptation, but deliver me from evil. We, by our own lusts (which we didn't choose to have by the weak heart we didn't bestow on ourselves) are lead into temptation, but we do not and cannot deliver ourselves from evil, only God can and He does. Our ego wants the credit for having chosen to do the right things - or as you say -- to come up in the first resurrection. But if we do come up in the first resurrection, then in the final analysis, we did it only because we learned to do right, because we were taught in the school of hard knocks, to want what is right and good. Jesus learned obedience by the things that He suffered.
Ah forget it. You're just gonna have to learn the hard way. Just like the rest of us. Sorry.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version