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Question that I seem to be thinking about
Rhys 🕊:
No problem. I was already confused anyway. Good question though as have been thinking about the same thing. Will have to think a bit more about it and respond later.
I find the Fonz dancing helps me at times like this:
Also known as Fonzie or Arthur Herbert Fonzarelli from Happy Days, as he use to say........... Aaaaeeeyyy!
Overcoming sins in your life Alex
Rhys ;)
RogerH:
Hi everyone. I’m new here and haven’t participated in any of the discussions, but I would like to try to contribute to this one.
Before I start I would like to say that I have read virtually everything that I can find that Ray has written, some of it many times over. I absolutely believe all that he has to say, but I think that maybe I interpret a few things differently than some of you. As Ray continuously says “you have to pay attention to every word”, I think that includes his words.
When Ray talks about “No Free Will”, I believe that with all my heart, but I do believe that God grants us freedom of choice. I think there are examples of this all through scripture beginning with Adam and Eve. I believe that every day we each are presented with choices to make. Those choices will either bring us closer to God or they will move us away from God. The more “right” choices we make, the closer we get to Him and we become the “overcomers”. Of course the more wrong choices we make the further we are from Him and the more we become subject to temptations of the evil one.
In Ray’s writings he mentions that we make choices, but I cannot find where he ever teaches much on it. He does say that we need to “always do the right thing”. If he believes that we have absolutely NO CHOICE of anything that we do, then how can he make that statement? With no choice we would be left to do whatever God decides, which could be good or bad, thus it would be virtually impossible for us to always do the right thing unless God chooses for us to.
When the rich young ruler came to Jesus, he had received the word with joy and wanted to know what he must do to be saved. After Jesus explained to him what was required, he made a choice NOT to do it. In another instance, several of Jesus’ devout followers took offense at what He said and DECIDED to no longer follow Him. Judas was chosen as one of the twelve, but he decided to betray Jesus for riches. I’m sure some of you believe that God causes all of those choices, so therefore we have no choice at all. If that is true then why did He say to the Israelites…..
Deuteronomy 30:15-20 (NKJ) 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
So to answer a couple of the questions here, I would say that God can call you out (the called ones), but ultimately it is you who determines (by the choices you make) whether you become a “chosen one”. If your choices are to “deny yourself” and to please and obey God and you choose to be content in whatever situation you find yourself (God’s will, not yours), then you are on the right path. As long as you continue on that path, you will become an “overcomer”.
I personally know many people whom I honestly believe God has called out, but they have made wrong decisions, like they refuse to believe that God will save all, or they refuse to let go of their prideful ways, or they get mad at God for the things they went through in the church and refuse to forgive, and many other things they choose to do that leads them down the wrong path, instead of humbling themselves before God, and saying “what’s next Lord”? As a result of their choices many of these people have simply walked away from God, and all I can do is pray for them.
God bless,
Roger
Gina:
--- Quote ---RogerH - So to answer a couple of the questions here, I would say that God can call you out (the called ones), but ultimately it is you who determines (by the choices you make) whether you become a “chosen one”. If your choices are to “deny yourself” and to please and obey God and you choose to be content in whatever situation you find yourself (God’s will, not yours), then you are on the right path. As long as you continue on that path, you will become an “overcomer”.
--- End quote ---
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. (John 15:16)
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30)
Some have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. Do they really have a choice as to whether they obey God or not? No.
--- Quote ---Ray Smith - I understand, Paul, that this truth is difficult for most to comprehend. And I
am not completely sure why this is so. I think possibly because we have
been trained and programmed to see too many things in only two dimensions,
when in reality there is a third dimention, but it is an illusion created by God
giving us two eyes spaced apart at the right distances to give us the illusion of
depth perception. Well, we need a little spiritual depth perception.
Theologians and clerics would have us believe that there are only two possibilities
with regards to man's either having free choice or not having free choice.
[1] We either have free will/choice and can make decisions based on no causing factors
whatsoever. We supposedly just create thoughts and actions out of NOTHING. Or,
[2] We are dumb robots.
Their is no third alternative for them. But here is the alternative truth that is in the
Scriptures and in the real work-a-day world. We have no free choice or free will
which is not caused by anything, as such a fabled idea is not only unscriptural, but
also a physiological impossibility. But........BUT, the alternative is not that we are
then "dumb robots." No, a thousand times, NO. We are intelligent. A person can
be intelligent and yet not have free will. We can think. A person can think and
yet not have free will. We can plan, think spacially, create, imagine, analyze and
manipulate difficult numbers and concepts, and WE CAN LEARN. I do not believe
that we shall ever build such robots as ourselves, and even if we did, we would have
to conclude that it was OUR INTELLIGENCE that built them, and they still would
not have free will or free choice either.
The fact that our choices are caused by some factor does not turn us into robots. And
because we are highly complicated and intelligent, it is God's purpose for us to experience
evil and then learn from it and choose to do good. Suffering the pain of making bad
decisions or being Judged by God for making bad decisions is a GOOD thing, not a bad.
Certainly we do not punish a robot if it malfunctions, but robots don't have hearts and minds
and consciences to direct them or give them guilt when they do wrong. Humans are highly
developed mechanisms, organisms, creatures, etc., plus we have a spirit at our core. Something
that no robot will ever have It is right and good that God should judge us
for doing bad things from our hearts and minds within. Ask God to continue opening your
mind to these difficult concepts.
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
( http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2943.0 )
We cannot possibly have free choice because we DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING! haha! Now, if we know everything and understand all that will happen if we choose this or the other thing, and still choose to do evil, then, what we really are is plain stupid. Or evil. Take your pick. ;)
Kat:
Hi RogerH,
Welcome to the forum :)
Here is more excerpts that might help you understand how we make the choices we make.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html -------------
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).
"For OF HIM, and THROUGH HIM, and TO HIM, are ALL THINGS..." (Rom. 11:36).
v
"Is there not an APPOINTED TIME to man upon earth? Are not his DAYS also like the days of an hireling? (Job 7:1).
Everyone who has ever been born or will yet be born has been appointed by God to be born at that time and season according the purpose of His will. And likewise, everyone who has died or will yet die has been appointed by God to die at that time and season according to the purpose of His will. It just is not possible to alter or change anything in the purpose and intention of a sovereign God. So once more, "free will" is out the window.
If mankind had a free will to do things that only they desired to do, at the time that only they desired to do them, then there would be billions upon billions of additions and deletions to God’s original plan. For it is foolishness to argue that one is "free" to do things that God has not preordained to happen, yet the very concept of free will demands that such unscriptural things can happen every day of our lives.
Free will contradicts:
"I know that, whatsoever God does, it shall be for ever [Heb:’for the eon’]; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God does it, that men should fear before Him" (Ecc. 3:14).
Ecc. 2:23—"For all his day, pains and vexation are his experience."
Ecc. 1:13—"It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."
Ecc. 9:12—"For a man also knows not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men [mankind] snared [trapped] in an EVIL TIME."
Does a fish know ahead of time when it will be caught in a net? Does a bird know ahead of time when it might be caught in a snare? No? You say, NO? Well then that’s exactly how much you know in advance what will befall you in this life of evil. The human will is not free to change anything that God has pre-appointed. You will "will" according to the circumstances God places in your path. And you are not free to "will" otherwise.
Between the birth of humanity and the death of humanity we find all of the following taking place at their appointed time:
"plant and pluck... kill and heal... breakdown and build up... weep and laugh... mourn and dance... cast away and gather... embrace and not embrace... get and lose... keep and cast away... rend and sew... keep silence and speak... love and hate... war and peace..." (Ecc. 3:2-9).
What we have here in Ecc. 3 is "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and every shade of gray between good and evil. God takes us through such profound experiences as "war and peace," all the way down to tearing a piece of cloth and sewing it together again-"a time to rend [apart] and a time to sew [together]." Not only do we all tear our pants or tear our shirt at some time or another, but, there is actually a God-appointed time for these things to happen.
I realize that this is a hard concept for most to believe, but this is indeed what God is emphasizing in this third chapter of Ecclesiastes: "To every thing there is a season [Heb: "an appointed season or time'], and a time to every purpose under the heaven." Can we believe it? Will we believe these grand declarations of God? Not if we are "free-willers" we won't.
The will of the entire human race combined, cannot bend one blade of grass unless it was foreknown, foreordained, and appointed by God to happen. Read Ecclesiastes 3 and tell me otherwise.
Clearly God tells us that there is an appointed time for everything that happens between birth and death. But nowhere does human free will and free choice enter into any of these God-ordained and God-caused and God-performed events in the lives of all who are born and die among the human race. Man’s "will" is indeed able to always choose what it prefers, but what it prefers will always be in concert with what God has preordained.
All the choices of all humanity are preordained by God to happen, and as such, not one is free to not happen. Therefore, no one has a will that can operate independent from or in opposition to, God’s preordained purpose.
How then is it possible to believe these Scriptures and yet believe in "free choices?" It is not possible, for these Scriptures blatantly contradict any such theory as "freely chosen acts" independent and contradictory to the will and plan of God. Seriously, if anyone can explain how someone can freely choose a course of action, [1] independent of God, or [2] bring about any course of action at a time other than pre-appointed by God, please drop me an email. I will now hold my breath....
v
Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.
Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:
[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).
AND:
[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).
Someone might see a contradiction in God’s teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.
---------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
Alex,
... but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, they'll never be lost, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:26, 27, 28)
They didn't choose to not believe; they could not believe. Jesus didn't choose them. It's that simple. ( You did not choose me, I chose you.)
Remember how Ray explained that if we have so much as a desire to do the will of God and to please God and not ourselves/our flesh then our desire will come to fruition? Judas was chosen by Jesus, but Judas had NO desire to please him and wasn't battling that at all. None. That's why Jesus said, "but one of you is a devil." Judas couldn't obey Jesus. He was given a different task.
It's a daily struggle. It's not just one day we overcome the flesh and we're no longer struggling. No, it's a constant battle, but one that we will win, IF we have been chosen by God to overcome. From a relative viewpoint, it appears as though we are making the choices to overcome, when in reality it is God who is TEACHING us by GRACE (that chastises, scourges, beats the living daylights out of us - in love, of course) to flipping learn to take the "high road." Right now because you're a young man in your 20's and testosterone is "King," pretty women and lots of money are your top priorities. (That is not to say that there is something wrong with pretty women or lots of money -- God makes them both; but they should never displace God's love. "If we have food and clothing and a roof over our heads, we should be content" -Sir Paul. But we LEARN to be content with these things. We learn. ) But if God is choosing you, your conscience is battling those things. Daily. And it's a MAJOR fight.
Here you are:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html
Can We Lose God Spirit/Eonian Life?
--- Quote ---John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own…
Well what does that mean? Christ knows those that are His. I get from that, that we don’t know, we don’t.
Now I have read you from Peter, which is to me, it is a very inspiring Scripture. Because we are not left totally in the dark. He is like, well it’s Que Sera Sera - maybe you will, maybe you won’t. Now here are some of these promises. Peter says;
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
v. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
v. 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
v. 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (love).
v. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF (there that little word “if” again) ye do these things (but here is the consolation, here is the inspiration, the hope and assurance…), ye shall never fall:
Now that’s pretty good. So all these things Paul is talking about here, I bring it into subjection, I bind it, I turn myself into a slave for Christ, lest I myself should be rejected or turned away or unapproved or disqualified. But if we “do these things.”
"TO HIM THAT OVERCOMES"
No matter how hard these things are they are benefits, all of this doing of this stuff is called OVERCOMING. I have a lot of stuff to overcome yet.
Here is an interesting thing. You live a while and you overcome certain sins. God gives you the victory over them and you feel good about that. Then your conscience is clean, because you can look back yesterday and you know in your heart and mind you were not flagrantly, willingly, willfully, knowingly sinning, practicing sin. You were trying to do what’s right, you are getting in the habit and the routine of doing what’s right.
Then low and behold you have to do it all over again. How so? God sends a bigger trial, bigger. What happens? Well with the same capacity of spirituality that you had yesterday and was making progress, it’s not enough to beat this trial today, it’s not enough. If you don’t get help from someplace, then you are going down. Is this a secret to any of you? It’s like whoa, I thought we were doing pretty good when I wiped out some of those other hurdles, you know (I kind of amuse myself with God sometimes). I thought that was a pretty good victory there. Now it’s not some strange thing from outer space, it’s the same trials you always have. Paul says;
1Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
These are things that are common, these are common to humanity, they just get bigger. I could deal with that, but now God hits me with this and this amount of spirituality from yesterday isn’t going to take care of this problem today. That’s what it means when we have to grow in grace and knowledge. Grace trains us, now you’ve got to grow in your training.
It’s like you go to boot camp in the army. They call it basic training. Why is it basic? Because what you do the first week gets harder the second week and the third and forth. It gets harder, but you get good at doing the stuff that was hard on the first day. Now they give you stuff that’s harder yet.
Low and behold if you should ever want to be an officer. Boy they really put the thumb screws to you then. I use to just hang around the corner in Fort Knox, Kentucky and watch. They would be training officers out on the grounds and I would just watch and I would pretend, could I take that kind of harassment and physical excursion, if I were trying to be an officer. It’s pretty tough, pretty tough stuff.
So it’s all overcoming. Paul likens this to overcoming and John wrote the first three chapters of Revelation, “To him that overcomes.”
Repenting of your past sins, accepting Jesus as your Saviour and receiving God’s Spirit does not pronounce you “SAVED.” It is not the conclusion of your spiritual life, but rather the very beginning.
What Paul did is called “overcoming,” and it’s the hardest thing in life to do, but the rewards are high. A few fringe benefits are:
Access to the TREE OF LIFE, which means you will be given immortality, never die again or fear death or worry about death.
You avoid THE SECOND DEATH, which is not only the second death spiritually, but all the judgment and stuff that goes with it. Why? Because you are judged now, if you are judged here you don’t need to be judged and condemned with the world later.
You get a NEW NAME, this means a lot of things, but it’s like you have to believe in the name and the name is everything that it represents and not just a new name, a better name.
POWER over the nation.
RIGHTEOUS garments, which mean we will be clothed in a perfect attitude, perfect righteousness.
Your new name will be CONFESSED BEFORE GOD THE FATHER.
Made a PILLAR, a mainstay, a vital support in the Temple of God.
SIT WITH CHRIST IN HIS THRONE.
(Rev. 2 & 3)
That’s a lot of good stuff. In fact here’s a problem with it. It’s too profound, we almost don’t even meditate on it. See if you could go into some kind of training and after so long you would be like a cabinet member of the president of the United States, you would say that would be pretty neat. You might put up with a lot to go into some kind of training like that, because you would hob knob with the president on Air Force One, that a pretty neat plane. You would meet all the other royalty around the world and so on and that would be pretty good.
Don’t you reckon this is a little higher calling then that? It is a high calling! Really high! Probably too high for our spirit to take it in. We’re just... oh okay that is pretty cool. But it really is great and I suppose, I’m thinking the further we go in life, if we believe these things, then it becomes more tangible. Not only will we believe them and think about them, we’ll start expecting them. Where the King James uses hope the Concordant uses expectation. We will expect it, we’ll be looking for it that much.
--- End quote ---
Don't lose heart. If you're struggling, that's a good sign you're on the right track. Battles are meant to be won. And God doesn't lose anyone. God saves.
I hope that makes sense.
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