> General Discussions
Who is Cains father?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 27, 2013, 12:32:06 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 27, 2013, 11:20:05 AM ---
--- Quote from: loretta on June 26, 2013, 11:29:19 PM ---
--- Quote ---I can't help but laugh at this. I also can't imagine where the idea came from.. but then again, this is christianity we are talking about.
--- End quote ---
You mean to say that the activity in the Garden is literal? I thought that John from Kentucky was suggesting otherwise.(?) Am I missing something here?
--- End quote ---
John and I see this differeny.
As corinthians states; "albeit that which is first was not spiritual but natu ral and afterwards that which is spiritual."
And
"All these things happened unto them for our esample."
So I believe that the old testament, unless explicitaley stated as in revalation through language such as "symbolized," was first a historical account of events and afterwords holding deeper spiritual meaning. As in many things biblical, if all you see is the literal than you're missing so much more.
Besides, ray expounded on the book of genesis and other old testament books and shows that the story of creation as described in genesis is very consisted with the scientific record such as; "the earth brough forth the shrubs" etc. ..
--- End quote ---
Here is an email where Ray stated he didn't think the serpent in the garden was literal. I agree
Re: The Serpent from LOF
on: August 28, 2007, 01:15:33 PM
The whole section entitled "WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL?" is very good, I'm just stuck on this thought of Satan was/is a serpent as also referenced in II Cor. 11:3
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html - almost halfway down.
Is this really describing something physical?
[Ray's reply]
Satan is a spirit being, seeing that he has been around for thousands of years. He is called a devil, serpent/snake, dragon, etc. We are not exactly sure what a dragon looks like, but supposedly it is in the reptile family as are snakes.
Nowhere that I can think of, did Satan ever appear visibly to anyone. Therefore his serpent/dragon qualities (or lack thereof) must be spiritual. Satan is a SPIRITUAL SNAKE. He has the secret, stealth qualities of a snake moving unseen in the dark. Although he is "like" [in certain characteristics] a roaring lion, he is not a lion, but "as" a lion he goes about seeking whom he may devour [Gk: 'swallow up' as in 'swallow a camel']. Spiritually devour/swallow.
So, did Eve talk with a literal, physical, snake, face to face, in the garden? I don't think so.
God be with you all,
Ray
Ray also taught that the seven days of creation were not literal 24 hour days, but the word day (Hebrew Yom) represented thousands of years, or a very long time period. I agree.
Ray also taught that the Flood did not cover the entire Earth. But that the Flood was a local event. The Hebrew word for Earth (erets) could also be translated as 'land' or 'country'. I agree.
In my opinion, there was not a literal serpent that walked and spoke with Eve. That the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a literal tree. That the Tree of Life, if you ate of its fruit you would live forever, was a literal tree. That there was a literal flaming sword guarding the Tree of Life. Adam is the Hebrew name for all humanity or mankind (check a concordance). Etc., etc., on and on we could go.
I don't want to argue the issue, and it is O.K. with me if some people think all scriptural stories are literally true.
The most important purpose of the Scriptures is to teach us Spiritual Truths, whether or not one believes the underlying story or event is literally true or symbolic.
--- End quote ---
I still disagree with you john and for good reasons.
First and foremost, believing the flood was a global event as opposed to local has nothing to do with seeing the old testament as historical or literal but rather due to a mistranslated and misundersood word. That word "earth," meaning landmass as opposed to earth as in world. So the flood still happened historically as recorded in genesis.
Secondly, while satan may not have become a literally talking snake, it does not follow that he did not lead eve to disobey God. I don't believe for one minute that Ray doesnt believe genesis to be a historical event.
Lastly, while "yom" may not mean a 24 hour day, it certainly is a chronological marker of events which occurred sequentially for our knowing in genesis.
In my opinion, based on my understandings, I believe the garden was a real literal place and that adam and eve were historical people that lived sometime ago. There is zero indication to believe genesis is not a historical record of actual events. It is very much a natural shadow of a spiritual reality. The spiritual being the more important of the two. Your example of Adam being the word for humanity is a perfect example of the deeper spiritual meaning behind the Words of God and I will not argue this. I believe this too; but to say that these events were also not historical is either dishonest or ignorant.
Besides, God can do anything. Is it so far fetched to believe he gave satan the ability to appear to eve as a serpent? After all, God did turn himself into a burning bush for moses.
Kindly,
Alex
Edit: For spelling, original response was done on my phone which lead to a lot of miss spellings.
G. Driggs:
Hi Loretta,
It is God's intention for us to go against His will for a time. No one has ever gone against His intention.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will (Greek: Intention)?
G. Driggs:
Wisdom,
Consider the following.
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote ---Hi Loretta,
It is God's intention for us to go against His will for a time. No one has ever gone against His intention.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will (Greek: Intention)?
--- End quote ---
To add to G. Driggs post:
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;
Rom 8:19 for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
Rom 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
Rom 8:21 that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Rom 8:22 for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on June 27, 2013, 04:34:58 PM ---Alex,
You wrote, "but to say that these events were also not historical is either dishonest or ignorant."
Well, if my only two choices are being either dishonest or ignorant, I guess I'll settle for being ignorant. ;D ;D ;D
John
--- End quote ---
John, you know I consider you a brother and your posts are very often thought provoking and filled with wisdom.
We are in complete agreement as to the spiritual importance of the old testament and I know we have the same mind on many scriptural matters.
I have simply chosen to be more open to the idea that the old testatement can be a historical record of events as well as a spiritual book.
Besides, being ignorant isn't a bad thing. I am ignorant to many things. It happens and simply is a state of not knowing. It was my opinion and Lord only knows, you could be entirely right! Maybe Adam and Eve never walked the earth and the garden is simply allegory.
With love,
Alex
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