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Author Topic: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF  (Read 7855 times)

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moshe

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SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« on: August 06, 2013, 10:19:50 PM »


In many occasions in the Scriptures ‘spirit’ denotes an attitude (1Cor.4:21). Also there is a no-conscious spirit within all humans that keeps them alive (Gen.2:7). And there are conscious spirits beings that live on the spiritual realm (Hebrews 1:7).

God the Almighty Creator, have more than one spirit. One of them is the spirit that is within all humans to keep them alive, another one is His ‘SPIRIT OF HOLLINES’ or also called ‘SPIRIT OF TRUTH’ that imparts knowledge and wisdom to those who have it.

I would like to share what I have thought about this term of ‘’spirit as the spirit of holiness of God Himself’’, and be open for clarification, correction or confirmation.

So, God is spirit (John 4:24), but He is unlike any other spirit (Isaiah 44:6); because He is a CONSCIOUS spirit who owns different spirits. God’s power is incomparable higher to any other spirit being, and He can also do all that He pleases (Isaiah 44:6).

God the Almighty Creator have a sacred spirit that is like no other; this is the holy spirit OF Him. Just imagine it as a the greatest force, the mayor condensation of energy ever recorded, a massive power way beyond the greatest amount of known power that only GOD Almighty can be able to control, after all… this is God’s spirit, an no-conscious spirit that also have characteristics that can be able to highly influence people minds and hearts  greatly.

According to the Scriptures, God gives CERTAIN AMOUNTS of this spirit of Him to certain persons that he chooses on each generation on the history of the world since Jesus Christ was physically here on earth. The effects of this spirit are visible in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Jesus Christ had this spirit without measure and the first communities of believers also received certain amounts of this supernatural spirit of truth:

‘‘the spirit of truth, which the world cannot get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be IN YOU (Here Jesus is talking about the time after his resurrection).’’  (John 14:17 Diaglott-NT)

Other symptoms of having the influence of this spirit of truth in your mind and heart is gentleness, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, faithfulness, meekness, and self control.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________


Now. Here is some new information I have been thinking regarding this ‘‘spirit as the holy spirit of God’’, which I find very interesting.

If sometimes the term spirit can denote an attitude, could it be possible that the holy spirit of God can denote and be better understood as one consistent ‘‘story’’ that we must live in? Which would be the true understanding and BELIEF of the story of the salvation of all along with its more important consequences?

Think about it, stories are powerful, they give energy and bravery. The belief on powerful stories can even be able to produce chemicals in our brains that help people to get better when they are sick.

I think that many times the term ‘‘holy spirit’ is such a difficult term to explain, we usually have the idea on our minds and take for granted that we know what it means but is just so hard to explain it.

What I am trying to do here is to put into words the meaning of this concept on a more easy way to understand.   

EVERYTHING is of God, and if I am right on this one, as long as I stay truthful to this story and LIVE it, then I can be able to say that I have the Spirit of God.
Right?

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se7en

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 01:13:31 PM »

Moises,

I know what your what your meaning. I've asked God this same type of question. We relate to each other via communication. And what is communication? We tell stories. We relate information to each other by speaking words or visually telling a story. Word's are very important. Words form ideas and doctrines, topple kingdoms and erect new ones.

God's Word is one big parable, one big story. I really like John's reply "As Paul told the Athenians on Mars' Hill, in God we live, move, and have our being." And exactly what you said Moises... "EVERYTHING is of God". Those were pagan Athenians that Paul was speaking to. We ALL live and move and breathe and have our being in Christ, everyone. But to have Christ inside us... that's different. I hope i'm communicating effectively here (telling a story)..... We all are in Christ, but to have Christ inside us, is to de-throne that son of perdition (the beast, me) and put Christ on the throne in the temple. This is all Christ's work of course! None of this is by our strength or any of our doing.

We live out the story through Word which is the Spirit, Jesus Christ, Truth. He is THE CHRIST, and we are His christ's. He is The Anointed and we are the anointed of The Anointed. We've been given the ears to hear and the eyes to see the Truth behind the physical shadow story.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (and we know from study that the word 'eternal' is the word 'aion').

Stories are how we communicate! When we live and tell God's story, we are speaking Truth and know God. When we don't, we live the shadow of the Truth.

I know what you mean Moises G. I used to think for many years that God as a spirit being was some large old man in spirit that I couldn't see way out in space or something, but that's not the truth. His WORD is Spirit. not the physical ink on a piece of paper or the digital ones and zero's that form a word in a computer but the MEANING behind those words. The Spirit. The meaning behind the parable... The meaning behind the story. If God's Word remains in us, then we Know God and He sits in the temple on the throne and not the beast. We die daily, we are being destroyed so that Christ is preimmenent. The more we die to our story/our life, our way of thinking and the more we think like Christ, it's no longer we who live.... BUT CHRIST LIVES IN US!!! It's HIS story being lived out in us. I become a member of His body.

It is through the Word/Holy Spirit/Jesus Christ that we come to know Truth and relate Truth to other's by living the parable, the story, the Spirit. It's an attitude, a belief, a way of thinking, a way of living a way of moving. Without this story (Jesus Christ), no one would ever exist. The script is already written, we are now acting it out.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

I think your right Moises, this parable (story) we live out is the Spirit/Word of the Father and the Son in us... IF Christ is in us. Otherwise, we live the shadow of the story (because everyone lives and moves).  Don't get me wrong, while still in this flesh, I'm walking through the shadow of the valley of death. But internally, inside, we are being graced and chastised into the kingdom. We are being taught to think like He does but the flesh is as good as dead.

Matt 13:34 All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.

Mark 4:34 But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…”

John 10:6 This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.

He spoke the Word/Spirit to them in parables (story form) so that those who are blind may see and those who see may be blind.

It's just how God does things to bring about the salvation of the whole world. It's AWESOME!!!
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gerard_dsouza

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 02:50:46 PM »

Hi Moises,
You posted good thoughts, and you are correct in your thought process.
I like this thought of yours:
Quote
Other symptoms of having the influence of this spirit of truth in your mind and heart is gentleness, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, faithfulness, meekness, and self control.

This is awesome, yes, this is a clear proof that you have the Spirit of God. Also in a sense, we become one with the Spirit of God and we began to understand the Father's heart and his emotions and his purpose to all around us, when we start to get Grace from God to have the fruits you mentioned. Only God can give that to us.
Be encouraged and continue sharing. Remember God only gives Grace to the humble and resist the proud. This is a divine principle and no one can stop you or hinder you to receive from God if you are humble, it will just receive Grace without even asking, as it says he gives Grace to the humble.
Pursue to receive Grace from God and for that only condition is to be humble.
Gerry
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moshe

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 07:08:53 PM »

John.

all you said doesnt contradict anything I said. I agree with what you said. When I see that you have posted. I usually expect controversy. which is not a bad thing.

And yes I can back up what I said regarding God having more than one spirit. actually if you re-read my post you will see that I have already.

I will post again soon. just need the time...
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Joel

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 10:55:43 PM »

Greetings Moises,
I can see where you are coming from, some scriptures came to mind as I read your post.

Revelations 5:6-And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beast, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Isaiah 11:2-And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom, and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord:

Joel
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cjwood

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2013, 02:14:40 AM »


In your 2nd paragraph above you state God has more than one spirit.  Can you quote at least two scriptures in support of that opinion.






hi moises.  regarding john from kentucky's above statement to you, i remembered some scripture references i recently read through when re-reading revelation, regarding the Spirits of God.  they are; revelation 1:4, 4:5, and isaiah 11:2-5. 

love in Christ,
claudia




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Kat

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2013, 11:24:35 AM »


I would like to mention something to consider.  I wonder if the "seven spirits" in Revelation would be symbolic of God's completeness/fullness, as we know that "7" is a symbolic number of completeness. That would show how these 'spirits' symbolize all of the methods/functions/doings/workings etc to accomplish His purpose.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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ez2u

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2013, 02:33:24 PM »

one tree truck many branches
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dave

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2013, 03:07:48 PM »


I would like to mention something to consider.  I wonder if the "seven spirits" in Revelation would be symbolic of God's completeness/fullness, as we know that "7" is a symbolic number of completeness. That would show how these 'spirits' symbolize all of the methods/functions/doings/workings etc to accomplish His purpose.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

 :)
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loretta

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2013, 03:36:26 PM »

One spirit, many manifestations?
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microlink

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 04:35:01 PM »

Hi all,
Eph 4:4-6 tells us that there is ONE Spirit. The Holy Spirit as John points out in his post. ONE and only ONE Also Kat mentions the symbolism that these seven spirits very likely represent. The scriptures below would tend to confirm that symbolism. 

Zec_3:9  For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zec_4:2  And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec_4:10  For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Rev_4:5  And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Rev_5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

p.s. It is amazing how many times the word seven is used in the Holy Scriptures in many instances denoting completeness/ fullness/ perfection. I did a quick count using e-sword and found well over 400 occurrences. And 91 in the NT.
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Joel

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2013, 08:52:45 PM »

1st Corinthians 12 shows that oneness and completeness.
4-Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5-And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6.And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.


Joel
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2013, 09:07:04 PM »

and to add the fruit of the (One) Spirit:

Gal 5:22  ...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 5:8  For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9  (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph 5:10  Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
 
 
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se7en

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2013, 01:46:02 PM »

Ooooh, I see the question your asking....

One spirit, but many diversities and applications of that one spirit. But it is one spirit working in everything.

God sends out evil spirits (My word is spirit) to accomplish what they are supposed to do. God's word kills and heals, He creates light out of the darkness, deceives and brings truth... etc, etc. ALL is out of God through Christ.

But it's all to "be making mankind in our image".  With the end result of salvation and God being all in all. :)

Is that what you were meaning Moises?
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dave

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2013, 10:47:37 PM »


In many occasions in the Scriptures ‘spirit’ denotes an attitude (1Cor.4:21). Also there is a no-conscious spirit within all humans that keeps them alive (Gen.2:7). And there are conscious spirits beings that live on the spiritual realm (Hebrews 1:7).

God the Almighty Creator, have more than one spirit. One of them is the spirit that is within all humans to keep them alive, another one is His ‘SPIRIT OF HOLLINES’ or also called ‘SPIRIT OF TRUTH’ that imparts knowledge and wisdom to those who have it.

I would like to share what I have thought about this term of ‘’spirit as the spirit of holiness of God Himself’’, and be open for clarification, correction or confirmation.

So, God is spirit (John 4:24), but He is unlike any other spirit (Isaiah 44:6); because He is a CONSCIOUS spirit who owns different spirits. God’s power is incomparable higher to any other spirit being, and He can also do all that He pleases (Isaiah 44:6).

God the Almighty Creator have a sacred spirit that is like no other; this is the holy spirit OF Him. Just imagine it as a the greatest force, the mayor condensation of energy ever recorded, a massive power way beyond the greatest amount of known power that only GOD Almighty can be able to control, after all… this is God’s spirit, an no-conscious spirit that also have characteristics that can be able to highly influence people minds and hearts  greatly.

According to the Scriptures, God gives CERTAIN AMOUNTS of this spirit of Him to certain persons that he chooses on each generation on the history of the world since Jesus Christ was physically here on earth. The effects of this spirit are visible in all goodness, righteousness and truth. Jesus Christ had this spirit without measure and the first communities of believers also received certain amounts of this supernatural spirit of truth:

‘‘the spirit of truth, which the world cannot get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be IN YOU (Here Jesus is talking about the time after his resurrection).’’  (John 14:17 Diaglott-NT)

Other symptoms of having the influence of this spirit of truth in your mind and heart is gentleness, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, faithfulness, meekness, and self control.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________


Now. Here is some new information I have been thinking regarding this ‘‘spirit as the holy spirit of God’’, which I find very interesting.

If sometimes the term spirit can denote an attitude, could it be possible that the holy spirit of God can denote and be better understood as one consistent ‘‘story’’ that we must live in? Which would be the true understanding and BELIEF of the story of the salvation of all along with its more important consequences?

Think about it, stories are powerful, they give energy and bravery. The belief on powerful stories can even be able to produce chemicals in our brains that help people to get better when they are sick.

I think that many times the term ‘‘holy spirit’ is such a difficult term to explain, we usually have the idea on our minds and take for granted that we know what it means but is just so hard to explain it.

What I am trying to do here is to put into words the meaning of this concept on a more easy way to understand.   

EVERYTHING is of God, and if I am right on this one, as long as I stay truthful to this story and LIVE it, then I can be able to say that I have the Spirit of God.
Right?


I, truly believe you have been given a view that many of us(I should say me) long for. I believe that you have scratched a surface that I have thought about many times. There is but ONE Spirit, that is the Lord God, and Jesus being one with the Father was overwhelmed with that Spirit, it was the only "thing" that caused His decisions. He could do nothing else, but the Will of the Father, because He loved His Father above His life. We, who believe, seek that overwhelming, but we are but His creation, not made like the Son Jesus, only in the true sense that we must learn as...  Heb 12:9  Then, indeed, fathers of our flesh we have had, chastising us , and we were reverencing them ; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of the spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10  for they, indeed, for a few days, according to what seemed good to them, were chastening, but He for profit, to be partakers of His separation;
Heb 12:11  and all chastening for the present, indeed, doth not seem to be of joy, but of sorrow, yet afterward the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those exercised through it--it doth yield.
this I believe is the race Paul ran and that we must run.
The whole chapter is instruction.
I am uplifted, thank you.


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moshe

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2013, 11:16:45 PM »


When God first breathed the breath of life (spirit) on the human body, man became a ‘living soul’ (Gen.2:7). What this spirit did is to give life into the body and then produced soul. So there is a spirit within all humans that keeps them alive.

This spirit that gives life doesn’t have conscious on its own. When we die the spirit returns to God, the owner of it:

‘‘Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.’’ (Ec. 12:7)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since I find myself on the forum:

Every person (and animal) has a “spirit.”  There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our

God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciousness of its own. It must be united

with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam’s body had the spirit of God

breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL.  God’s Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which

imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers

have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they

do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would

take days to answer your question in detail.

Ray


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moshe

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2013, 11:26:56 PM »


Also, the entire bottom half of your post sounds like your philosophy.  Do you have two scriptures in support of any of your statements contained therein?



John. That something is someones philosophy; doesn't mean that it has to be automatically wrong. That there is not free-will is my philosophy of life and I am right on that one.

If you think I am wrong, I am open to be proven wrong. I wasn't trying to teach something new, and therefore I don't want to back up all the details of what I said in there. Actually I was just looking for one example to be able to understand the concept of 'holy spirit' better (that's all), and was only speaking my mind and I am glad I did since I got many good replys.

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moshe

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2013, 11:29:12 PM »

Moises,

I know what your what your meaning. I've asked God this same type of question. We relate to each other via communication. And what is communication? We tell stories. We relate information to each other by speaking words or visually telling a story. Word's are very important. Words form ideas and doctrines, topple kingdoms and erect new ones.

God's Word is one big parable, one big story. I really like John's reply "As Paul told the Athenians on Mars' Hill, in God we live, move, and have our being." And exactly what you said Moises... "EVERYTHING is of God". Those were pagan Athenians that Paul was speaking to. We ALL live and move and breathe and have our being in Christ, everyone. But to have Christ inside us... that's different. I hope i'm communicating effectively here (telling a story)..... We all are in Christ, but to have Christ inside us, is to de-throne that son of perdition (the beast, me) and put Christ on the throne in the temple. This is all Christ's work of course! None of this is by our strength or any of our doing.

We live out the story through Word which is the Spirit, Jesus Christ, Truth. He is THE CHRIST, and we are His christ's. He is The Anointed and we are the anointed of The Anointed. We've been given the ears to hear and the eyes to see the Truth behind the physical shadow story.

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (and we know from study that the word 'eternal' is the word 'aion').

Stories are how we communicate! When we live and tell God's story, we are speaking Truth and know God. When we don't, we live the shadow of the Truth.

I know what you mean Moises G. I used to think for many years that God as a spirit being was some large old man in spirit that I couldn't see way out in space or something, but that's not the truth. His WORD is Spirit. not the physical ink on a piece of paper or the digital ones and zero's that form a word in a computer but the MEANING behind those words. The Spirit. The meaning behind the parable... The meaning behind the story. If God's Word remains in us, then we Know God and He sits in the temple on the throne and not the beast. We die daily, we are being destroyed so that Christ is preimmenent. The more we die to our story/our life, our way of thinking and the more we think like Christ, it's no longer we who live.... BUT CHRIST LIVES IN US!!! It's HIS story being lived out in us. I become a member of His body.

It is through the Word/Holy Spirit/Jesus Christ that we come to know Truth and relate Truth to other's by living the parable, the story, the Spirit. It's an attitude, a belief, a way of thinking, a way of living a way of moving. Without this story (Jesus Christ), no one would ever exist. The script is already written, we are now acting it out.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

I think your right Moises, this parable (story) we live out is the Spirit/Word of the Father and the Son in us... IF Christ is in us. Otherwise, we live the shadow of the story (because everyone lives and moves).  Don't get me wrong, while still in this flesh, I'm walking through the shadow of the valley of death. But internally, inside, we are being graced and chastised into the kingdom. We are being taught to think like He does but the flesh is as good as dead.

Matt 13:34 All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.

Mark 4:34 But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…”

John 10:6 This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.

He spoke the Word/Spirit to them in parables (story form) so that those who are blind may see and those who see may be blind.

It's just how God does things to bring about the salvation of the whole world. It's AWESOME!!!

Thanks for this.

A lot of this things where already on my mind.
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moshe

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2013, 11:31:54 PM »

Hi Moises,
You posted good thoughts, and you are correct in your thought process.
I like this thought of yours:
Quote
Other symptoms of having the influence of this spirit of truth in your mind and heart is gentleness, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, faithfulness, meekness, and self control.

This is awesome, yes, this is a clear proof that you have the Spirit of God. Also in a sense, we become one with the Spirit of God and we began to understand the Father's heart and his emotions and his purpose to all around us, when we start to get Grace from God to have the fruits you mentioned. Only God can give that to us.
Be encouraged and continue sharing. Remember God only gives Grace to the humble and resist the proud. This is a divine principle and no one can stop you or hinder you to receive from God if you are humble, it will just receive Grace without even asking, as it says he gives Grace to the humble.
Pursue to receive Grace from God and for that only condition is to be humble.
Gerry

Thanks Gerry

I am trying not be proud, sometimes it's just so hard.
God have mercy on me...

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: SPIRIT AS THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS OF GOD HIMSELF
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2013, 04:18:34 AM »

The statement "God has many spirits" is at best confusing, because it's not a Scriptural statement but an attempt at explaining something.  I'll cut Moises some slack because English is not his first language, and I'll take him at his word that his post was not an attempt to introduce "new" teaching.  The statement has been well replied to and addressed by others.

I'm inclined to leave the thread open for now, though it is straining hard at the rules of the forum. 

   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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