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wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
thewatchman:
--- Quote from: Oatmeal on October 18, 2013, 06:52:07 PM ---Why was I not cut to pieces because of what I said in my post in this thread?
Oatmeal
--- End quote ---
Don't worry Oatmeal...we aren't ignoring you. No-one takes the opinions of 'porridge' seriously.... :D ;D :P
Oatmeal:
Even though J f K has said that I was wrong in my conclusions in my post regarding marriage, divorce and remarriage, it has not been explained to me from the Scriptures the specific of my error.
Jesus said that if someone from an original first and legitimate marriage divorced their partner and then remarried when the original partner from the first marriage was still alive, then the remarried person, and their new partner at least as far as a divorced woman is concerned, would be committing adultery.
This act of divorce, remarriage and adultery therefore does not make the first marriage invalid. Ray says that adultery, and not only adultery, but also a "whole host of sins", can make the first marriage invalid. Would someone please provide an explanation for the difference in teaching, or the apparent difference?
Thanks for your help
Oatmeal
Dave in Tenn:
Could you provide a quote where Ray says this?
Kat:
Here are a few places Ray spoke on divorce.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.msg45931.html#msg45931 -------
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
v. 32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery.
So Jesus did not even contradict the aspect of divorce, you know when they came to Him and said, can a man divorce for any reason. He said that if you put away your wife or divorced her, except it be for a cause of fornication or immorality - ‘porneia’ is the word, then you cause that person, if they go out and find another mate, then you cause them to commit adultery. You had no right to divorce that person.
Now He doesn’t say it specifically, but you can deduce, you know you can lawfully, legally and rightly deduce from what is said, something that isn’t said. If you shouldn’t divorce for that, “except for fornication,” that means for fornication, you can divorce. So if Jesus Christ is putting His approval on a certain aspect of immorality where divorce can be involved, than He is also backing up the fact, that it was a legal marriage until the divorce came about.
Jesus does not contradict divorcement. If adultery is involved, Jesus okays the marriage of a divorced person.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm -----------------------------------
[3] "It has been said [yes, and it is in the Old Testament too] Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement. Jesus did not contradict this law. Jesus did not do away with this law; it is still in effect. But Jesus does expound upon it. "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery..." That is not in the Old Testament Law. Jesus did not say that there no longer is divorce, and contradict or do away with this law, but He did enlarge it.
Jesus did not say: "But I say unto you, you can never get a divorce," did He? No, He didn't, but He did bring out the spirit in this law. It was there all along, it's just that the carnal-minded Israelites didn't see it or get it. Yes, you can still get a divorce for "any reason" in most countries of the world. But you can't be Jesus' disciple if you don't obey the spiritual intent of the law which was there from the beginning. Jesus taught that it was always God's intent for a husband and wife to stay together and never part (Matt. 19:4-6). Even "...EXCEPT it be for fornication..." people should not divorce. They can divorce, and they won't be "causing her to commit adultery," but that doesn't mean that they should divorce. Try to forgive and work it out, but if not, then on these grounds, one can divorce.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2774.0.html ---
Divorce: The only way that Jesus said one can leave a marriage and/or marry another is if there is "pornia" present (called 'fornication') in the King James. Pornia means "prostitution," but it can also mean a host of sexual immorality. Also, Paul tells us that if a man will not provide for his own family, he is "WORSE than an infidel" (1Tim 5:8). The same is true of a man who deserts his family, or abuses his wife or children. In such cases of "immorality" a mate should not be considered bound.
God be with you,
Ray
Dave in Tenn:
The whole exchange, for perspective:
Mat 19:3 And the Pharisees came to Him, trying Him, and saying, "Is it allowed one to dismiss his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 Now He, answering, said, "Did you not read that the Maker from the beginning makes them male and female,
Mat 19:5 and He said, 'On this account a man shall be leaving father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh'?
Mat 19:6 So that no longer are they two, but one flesh. What God, then, yokes together, let not man be separating."
Mat 19:7 They are saying to Him, "Why, then, does Moses direct to give a scroll of divorce and to dismiss her?
Mat 19:8 Jesus is saying to them, that "Moses, in view of your hardheartedness, permits you to dismiss your wives. Yet from the beginning it has not come to be thus."
Mat 19:9 Now I am saying to you that whoever should be dismissing his wife (not for prostitution) and should be marrying another, is committing adultery, and he who marries her who has been dismissed, is committing adultery."
Mat 19:10 The disciples are saying to Him, "If the cause of a man with a woman is thus, it is not expedient to marry."
Mat 19:11 Yet He said to them, "Not all are containing this saying, but those to whom it has been given."
Mat 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born thus out of their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who are emasculated by men, and there are eunuchs who emasculate themselves because of the kingdom of the heavens. The one able to contain it, let him contain it."
And, as much as we like to "cut" the scripture into doctrinal bullet points, then this happened.
Mat 19:13 Then little children were brought to Him, that He may be placing His hands on them and should be praying. Yet the disciples rebuke them."
Mat 19:14 Yet Jesus said to them, "Let the little children be coming to Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of the heavens."
Mat 19:15 And, placing His hands on them, He went thence."
And then this:
Mat 19:16 And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian?
Mat 19:17 Yet He said to him, "Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts."
Mat 19:18 He is saying to Him, "Which?Now Jesus said, "These: 'You shall not be murdering.' 'You shall not be committing adultery.' 'You shall not be stealing.' 'You shall not be testifying falsely.'"
Mat 19:19 Be honoring father and mother,' and 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'"
Mat 19:20 The youth is saying to Him, "These all I maintain. In what am I still deficient?
Mat 19:21 Jesus averred to him, "If you are wanting to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and be giving to the poor, and you will be having treasure in the heavens. And hither! Follow Me."
Mat 19:22 Now, hearing this word, the youth came away sorrowing, for he had many acquisitions."
Mat 19:23 Now Jesus said to His disciples, "Verily, I am saying to you that the rich squeamishly will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens."
Mat 19:24 Yet again, I am saying to you that it is easier for a camel to be entering through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be entering into the kingdom of God."
Mat 19:25 Now, hearing it, the disciples were tremendously astonished, saying, "Who, consequently, can be saved?
Mat 19:26 Now, looking at them, Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible."
And then this, after all of that.
Mat 19:23 Now Jesus said to His disciples, "Verily, I am saying to you that the rich squeamishly will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens."
Mat 19:24 Yet again, I am saying to you that it is easier for a camel to be entering through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be entering into the kingdom of God."
Mat 19:25 Now, hearing it, the disciples were tremendously astonished, saying, "Who, consequently, can be saved?
Mat 19:26 Now, looking at them, Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible."
Mat 19:27 Then, answering, Peter said to Him, "Lo! we leave all and follow Thee. What, consequently, will it be to us?
Mat 19:28 Yet Jesus said to them, "Verily, I am saying to you, that you who follow Me, in the renascence whenever the Son of Mankind should be seated on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Mat 19:29 And everyone who leaves houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, on account of My name, a hundred-fold shall be getting, and shall be enjoying the allotment of life eonian."
Mat 19:30 Yet many of the first shall be last, and the last first."
And He didn't stop there, either.
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