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wanting to take vows... till marriage is possible
adiamondintheson:
These are all valid points.... to me it is all so complicated. I was raised in a ministers home and was brought up very legalistic. No make up.. no slacks.. no jewelry.. no movies... no TV.. etc. When you married, it was till "DEATH" do you part. Nobody talked to me about the gut feelings inside that let me know, I was not making the right choice.. he (my fiance) was of the same denomination I was in... had a good job... finished his time in the service... etc. (all good reasons to marry) (right). To make a long story short.. the legalistic church we were from taught it was a sin to get angry, so always to be kind, etc. Well... in just a short time after the marriage, I realized I was not loved and cared for like my dear mother had been, by my daddy who tried to live Godly. I became the beating post for angry outbursts. Because I had 'Married'... I didn't feel I could just walk away. After 16 years, 4 sons, and a miscarriage due to the abuse... I left one day after being choked out of a sleep in the middle of the night. Three days later, I got a call from my Mom.. (whom I loved with all my heart) telling me that I would go to hell for leaving him. I was sick in heart when I asked her how she could say that, as she could very well be sitting in a funeral home that very day! Never DID understand all these things. I can only say... that after 4 different marriages... God has brought my (now) husband and I to Bible Truths to learns that there IS no hell to be going to where we'll burn forever and forever. We have also learned that God has directed each and every step we took... and I now know a God that is totally different than the One I thought to be as a child growing up. I'm so thankful... and as for the reason for my posting this topic in the first place... was because... I don't care how many PEOPLE... I can get to agree with me... or not... but to truly know what it is that God would have ME to do. I would not want to find myself EVER telling my daughter, God doesn't want you to do this.. or God will do that... and cause her to turn away from HIM.
You are all so good to try to help... and I hope this gives you a little insight into where I'm actually coming from. Learning more every day of His awesome Grace & Mercy!! Thanks to you all...
Connie
theophilus:
--- Quote from: Abednego on November 24, 2013, 01:10:02 PM ---With that being said, and seeing this has branched off slightly, I'd like to add something that i've been chewing on lately. It centers around:
Quote from: Joel on November 14, 2013, 09:30:59 AM
Mark 10:9-What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
And
Quote from: theophilus on September 21, 2013, 04:33:48 AM
Can someone define marriage scripturally? Who performed the first marriage? How do men get authority to perform the marriage ceremony?
I'm not totally sold on what marriage really is anymore. Now before everyone tries to burn me at the stake, I am not saying our marriages are invalid. We all know the scriptures that talk about God and what's in our hearts.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Abednego on November 24, 2013, 01:10:02 PM ---With that being said, and seeing this has branched off slightly, I'd like to add something that i've been chewing on lately. It centers around:
Quote from: Joel on November 14, 2013, 09:30:59 AM
Mark 10:9-What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
And
Quote from: theophilus on September 21, 2013, 04:33:48 AM
Can someone define marriage scripturally? Who performed the first marriage? How do men get authority to perform the marriage ceremony?
I'm not totally sold on what marriage really is anymore. Now before everyone tries to burn me at the stake, I am not saying our marriages are invalid. We all know the scriptures that talk about God and what's in our hearts.
--- End quote ---
The "no man" in Mark 10:9 are the marriage partners, not a third party. So, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not 'the marriage partners' put asunder [apart]."
When a couple no longer has a great relationship, their marriage is no longer great. When they care more about their marriage than their marriage partner, they have misplaced the emphasis of their relationship. Being married does not create a great relationship. But having a great relationship creates a great marriage.
Which is greater in God’s eyes, the marriage or the people of the marriage?
If push comes to shove, who do we save, the institution or the people of the institution? And if we face the decision of either saving a marriage or the people of the marriage, which one do we choose? The people no doubt!
One thing that is not being discussed here is the soul ties that remain after such a breakup. If the ONENESS spoken of in scripture (Ephesians 5:31) was achieved between a couple, when they separate and remarry they can't possibly give themselves 100% to their new spouses. These soul ties must be broken first in order to enjoy their new relationship to the fullest.
Even though I refer to marriage as an "institution" in this post, I have unanswered questions as to how it became an institution and who instituted it. If someone replies that God did it, I can retort that God did the same with divorce. Like I asked before, who possesses the authority to marry, a JOP, a mormon bishop, a catholic priest, an evangelical or protestant pastor/minister? Apparently, ANYONE can perform the marriage ceremony; even a minister of the Church of Satan! If a couple marries in the Church of Satan, or in a Wiccan setting by a Wicca practitioner, is this marriage acceptable in the eyes of God? ???
loretta:
--- Quote from: theophilus on November 25, 2013, 08:18:30 AM ---
The "no man" in Mark 10:9 are the marriage partners, not a third party. So, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not 'the marriage partners' put asunder [apart]."
When a couple no longer has a great relationship, their marriage is no longer great. When they care more about their marriage than their marriage partner, they have misplaced the emphasis of their relationship. Being married does not create a great relationship. But having a great relationship creates a great marriage.
Which is greater in God’s eyes, the marriage or the people of the marriage?
If push comes to shove, who do we save, the institution or the people of the institution? And if we face the decision of either saving a marriage or the people of the marriage, which one do we choose? The people no doubt!
--- End quote ---
Interesting line of thinking, Theophilus. But, are you suggesting that divorce is justified in some cases, that is why God allows divorce? Is the emphasis on great rather than on marriage? I believe Ray said that there was nothing spiritual about marriage, so I guess it matters not who marries us, just as long as it is valid under the law of the land. But there is a spiritual purpose for marriage, in that God uses both the great and the not so great marriages to purge us of all that is not holy and acceptable to Him. Marriage and divorce, both of God, serve a purpose in his divine plan for the redemption of humanity.
--- Quote ---One thing that is not being discussed here is the soul ties that remain after such a breakup. If the ONENESS spoken of in scripture (Ephesians 5:31) was achieved between a couple, when they separate and remarry they can't possibly give themselves 100% to their new spouses. These soul ties must be broken first in order to enjoy their new relationship to the fullest.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe that soul ties can be broken or at least the way they attempt to do so in Babylon. How we do live with them, good and bad, is part of the lof and ALL of God.
theophilus:
--- Quote from: loretta on November 26, 2013, 10:18:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: theophilus on November 25, 2013, 08:18:30 AM ---
The "no man" in Mark 10:9 are the marriage partners, not a third party. So, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not 'the marriage partners' put asunder [apart]."
When a couple no longer has a great relationship, their marriage is no longer great. When they care more about their marriage than their marriage partner, they have misplaced the emphasis of their relationship. Being married does not create a great relationship. But having a great relationship creates a great marriage.
Which is greater in God’s eyes, the marriage or the people of the marriage?
If push comes to shove, who do we save, the institution or the people of the institution? And if we face the decision of either saving a marriage or the people of the marriage, which one do we choose? The people no doubt!
--- End quote ---
Interesting line of thinking, Theophilus. But, are you suggesting that divorce is justified in some cases, that is why God allows divorce? Is the emphasis on great rather than on marriage? I believe Ray said that there was nothing spiritual about marriage, so I guess it matters not who marries us, just as long as it is valid under the law of the land. But there is a spiritual purpose for marriage, in that God uses both the great and the not so great marriages to purge us of all that is not holy and acceptable to Him. Marriage and divorce, both of God, serve a purpose in his divine plan for the redemption of humanity.
--- Quote ---One thing that is not being discussed here is the soul ties that remain after such a breakup. If the ONENESS spoken of in scripture (Ephesians 5:31) was achieved between a couple, when they separate and remarry they can't possibly give themselves 100% to their new spouses. These soul ties must be broken first in order to enjoy their new relationship to the fullest.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe that soul ties can be broken or at least the way they attempt to do so in Babylon. How we do live with them, good and bad, is part of the lof and ALL of God.
--- End quote ---
I am of the opinion that it is justified.
God angrily said that He “…hated putting away [a separation]” “...Because you have not kept My ways [concerning marriage, divorce and remarriage] but have SHOWN PARTIALITY IN THE LAW” (Malachi 2:9). The Law specifically stated that when a man got a divorce from his wife that he was to write “...her a CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE, put it in her hand, AND [shalach] send her out [put her away]…” (Deuteronomy 24:1). God also commanded them not to marry anyone who did not serve Him but who served a foreign god (See Nehemiah 13:25-30).
Deutoronomy 24.1: When a man has taken a wife and married her, and it comes to pass that she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her; then let him write her a bill of divorce and give it in her hand and send (shalach) her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
The Hebrew word "shalach" means “putting away”, a separation. However, the King James and a number of newer versions have incorrectly translated shalach as to mean 'divorce'. It never meant divorce and it doesn’t mean divorce. The word was most likely translated as “divorce” to fit what was taught in the church.
Instead, men frivolously separated from their wives without ever giving them a Certificate of Divorce and then illegally married someone else. This is why the Lord said that they were still “their wife by covenant.” (Malachi 2.14) The marriage covenant had never been dissolved by the Divorce Certificate.
Because these men had remarried illegally (separated from their wives without giving them a Certificate of Divorce), they were in adultery as Jesus stated: “Furthermore it has been said, “Whoever PUTS AWAY [separates from {apoluo}] his wife, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE. But I say to you that whoever PUTS AWAY [separates and remarries without being divorced from] his wife for any reason EXCEPT SEXUAL IMMORALITY causes her to commit adultery: and whoever marries a woman who is PUT AWAY [separated without being divorced {apoluo}] commits adultery” (Matthew 5:31-32).
The Old Testament Hebrew word shalach and the New Testament Greek word apoluo are equivalent.
These men were putting away their wives FOR ANY REASON. On top of that, they were not giving the women certificates of divorce. The Lord Jesus expanded on His law by saying that men were not to put away their wives FOR ANY REASON, except ONE: sexual immorality.
Matthew 5.31-32
31 “It was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a get.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, makes her an adulteress; and that anyone who marries a divorcee commits adultery.
--- Quote ---I believe Ray said that there was nothing spiritual about marriage, so I guess it matters not who marries us
--- End quote ---
1 Cor. 6:
15 Don’t you know that your bodies are parts of the Messiah? So, am I to take parts of the Messiah and make them parts of a prostitute? Heaven forbid! 16 Don’t you know that a man who joins himself to a prostitute becomes physically one with her? For the Tanakh says, “The two will become one flesh” (Genesis 2.24); 17 but the person who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. 18 Run from sexual immorality! Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the fornicator sins against his own body. 19 Or don’t you know that your body is a temple for the Ruach HaKodesh who lives inside you, whom you received from God? The fact is, you don’t belong to yourselves; 20 for you were bought at a price. So use your bodies to glorify God.
Theophilus
Oatmeal:
Theophilus
I do not understand how you conclude that these people in Malachi were separating from their wives without a certificate of divorce.
Your conclusion seems to be based on interpretation of the word shalach, which you said means a separation, but does not mean a divorce, and never meant divorce.
You said:
--- Quote ---The Hebrew word "shalach" means “putting away”, a separation. However, the King James and a number of newer versions have incorrectly translated shalach as to mean 'divorce'. It never meant divorce and it doesn’t mean divorce. The word was most likely translated as “divorce” to fit what was taught in the church.
--- End quote ---
You thus concluded that these men had separated from their wives, but had not given them a certificate of divorce, and so had not divorced them, but just separated.
You quoted from Deuteronomy 24:1,2:
--- Quote ---When a man has taken a wife and married her, and it comes to pass that she finds no favour in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her; then let him write her a bill of divorce and give it in her hand and send (shalach) her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.
--- End quote ---
The above Scripture says that shalach means that the woman was free to go and be another man’s wife. Doesn’t that mean therefore that shalach in that culture is the equivalent of divorce in our culture, as close as the differences in culture will allow, otherwise how could the woman be free to go and be another man’s wife?
In the Scripture above that you quoted, the Law states that it was a requirement of the Law that for a woman to be shalach she must receive a certificate of divorce. So therefore how can you and on what basis do you claim that shalach means that these women had not received a certificate of divorce?
Has difference in culture caused you confusion? In our culture there is often or usually a period of separation, where the couple is known as separated, before an application is made and a piece of paper is received that pronounces the couple as divorced. Correct me if I am incorrect, but there appears to be no separation period in the Israelite culture, and no requirement for such in the Law. The woman was given the bill/certificate of divorce and the deed was done.
Also, the Scripture in Malachi does not say that these women had not received a certificate of divorce, and on that basis also there appears to be no foundation on which to claim that a certificate of divorce had not been given.
Look at the detail given in Malachi 2:14-16 of the effects of the divorcing of the covenant wife. Yet you say that the divorcing of the covenant wife was actually not the problem, and God does not hate such a divorce at all, it is separation without divorce papers that God hates, and you wrested that into being by defining shalach as not having a certificate of divorce when in the very Scripture that you quoted the Law says that a woman must be given a certificate of divorce to be shalach.
However your observation that these women had been unjustifiably (and selfishly) put away seems to be valid. That was the nature of the treachery, I think, not a lack of a certificate of divorce.
It should also be noted that when a shalach woman lay with a second husband, she became defiled (read on in Deuteronomy 24).
Deuteronomy 22:13-19 and Deuteronomy 22:28-29 each detail one of two separate occasions, both occasions where a man had taken a woman’s virginity, when the man was not allowed to shalach the woman all his days.
Oatmeal
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