> General Discussions
The Free Will Thing
Kat:
Hi AwesomeSavior,
Here are a few email that should help with your question.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5146.msg40669.html#msg40669 ------------------
Dear Dean: Regarding the Forum's question as to whether God has a free will or not:
"Free will" is not a topic of Scripture. Humanity absolutely does not have a free will/free choice disposition. All thoughts and actions have a cause. God, however, is the First Cause. God answers to no one and no one dictates or causes God to think or do anything--all Protestant and Catholic prayers to the contrary included. However, we are told in the Scriptures who "God cannot lie," for example or why God never "changes his mind." This is a governing factor to God's disposition, but it is not an outside force. Here is how God thinks and operates everything in the universe:
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [operates] ALL THINGS AFTER THE C-O-U-N-S-E-L OF H-I-S O-W-N W-I-L-L" (Eph. 1:11).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2142.0 -----------------------------------
Dear Micahel:
I will not debate you on your questions, however, I will make a few COMMENTS in your email, and that will be the end of it...........
Dear Mr. Smith,
I've been pondering your views on "Free Will" and it seems that we humans cannot make choices without "cause and effect (consequence)".
But, is not God also in the same boat??
COMMENT: God is not in a "boat." And, No, God is not on the same level as humans either.
Can even God have "Free Will" and make decisions (choices) without "cause and effect (consequence)"??
COMMENT: The term "free will" means a will without a cause. The term "free choice" means a choice that has no cause. Now then, Does man have a will that has no cause behind it? NO. Does God make choices that have no cause? We need to be very careful when we try to use words applied to humanity as though they equally apply to God. Choice can mean to pick from a number of possibilities. In this usage, God does not make choices. God knows and always persues the ONLY WISE COURSE or action. So if we mean by choice, Selecting that which we prefer, then God does in that sense make a choice, since He always does what He prefers to do. But these things do not come from nowhere, nor do they come from an outside or higher power. There is no outside higher power than God. But The Scriptures do tell us by what method or means God does what He does:
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the PURPOSE of Him [God] Who works all things after THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:11).
There is your answers.
If the answer "Yes", then why does this answer not also apply to people, since we are in the image of God?
COMMENT: We are NOT as yet "in the image of God." (Rom. 8:29).
If the answer is "No"", then God is not sovereign --- since even He does not have "Free Will" and is subject to "Cause and Effect"
COMMENT: This statement is nonsense.
God be with you,
Ray
AwesomeSavior:
Thank you, Kat :)
Pierdut:
I am quite convinced that we don't have a "free will," although we do have a will (albeit one that is caused by one thing or another) and if there is a sovereign God that knows how everything will turn out then it cannot be otherwise, meaning we can and will only make the one possible choice we could have made in any scenario in our lives, no matter how much we may regret it later, or regret that some other person has made a certain choice. What I have trouble with is loving God, because it also means that my life could not have been any different, and so it means that this is the life that I was predestined to have. If we had a "free will," and if there could have been [and were] multiple possibilities in every single event in my life, then I'd have no one to blame but myself for all the bad decisions I made, or for when things didn't turn out the way I had hoped.
It's ironic. Most of my life I avoided church and wanted nothing to do with God and religion (even though i come from a Christian family) and just wanted to live my own life according to my heart's desires and God would just not let me succeed. I didn't want a Christian / religious girlfriend / wife, I wanted the type of girls that don't wait 'til marriage, and that drink and party and stuff. And while I met some here and there, and had some success, it would never last, and it would always come crashing down. And not just with women, but even male friends that I would indulge in worldly things with (drinking, smoking, drugs, seeking women, etc.).Now I am at a point where I am willing to go back to church even though I don't agree with their teaching just because I am having no success in life at all right now; either with women or other areas of my life - so if that's what it takes, then so be it.
Maybe that's where I'll meet my future wife, in the one place I avoided most of my life. Go figure, eh?
And if so, then God's got quite a sense of humor. I don't know. All I know is I feel drawn to attend church this Sunday, and with all the problems in my life right now, and my parents who are visiting wanting me to go, and believing that the reason for them is because of my rebellion, and many, many sins, and feeling like this is what I must do in order for this curse to end. I really do feel like I am cursed, because every time something would go good in my life (whether it's women, or finances, or what have you) something would always put a stop to it, because had I succeeded, I wouldn't have wanted anything at all to do with God - in fact I both despised Him and disbelieved in Him - as contradictory as that is. Now I don't hate God, but I also don't love Him. I suppose it's because I don't love myself, and hate my life... So how can I love its Creator?
God knows my heart, so there's no sense in lying. It would take a miracle for my heart and mind to change - as well as for my life (to change). I can't just stop sinning, or stop desiring what I desire - I can't just make myself "gay," or a eunuch. Although I've no doubt I'd have a lot better success with "men" than I currently do with women - I get hit on by more "men" than women, sadly. But I am NOT "gay" and I can not and will not go there. Thank God for that. Ray said that God has predetermined what sins you will commit, and what sins you wouldn't commit; and I've committed some truly horrendous sins, don't get me wrong. But my point here is the lack of "free will," because if we had it then there would be nothing causing me to desire certain things or stopping me from committing certain things (e.g., homo-sex, child-molestation, murder, suicide, etc, etc, etc,). [Refer to Ray's "Guilty of all" audio for this last bit]
Kat:
Well Pierdut, I will say what I believe about why this world is the way it is, for you and me and everybody. God is sovereign and therefore He must determine how things will be, there is no free will and He has predetermined what will happen in this creation from start to finish. His wisdom is so very much higher than our rather feeble minds that we really can't comprehend the perfection of His plan, especially since we are in the middle (actually more like the beginning) of it now.
I believe He is creating a 'family' (seems like a good word for it) of beings that after they have reached perfection, they/us will have a very unimaginably great existence from then on. What I think we are involved in right now in this age is bringing into existence all the beings He wants for this family. First we are given life and experience of good and evil to develop our base character.
So He is giving us all a varied (there seems to be many extremes in this) life situations to create a broad variety in our personalities... serious types, easy going types, those who find humor in everything, people with inquisitive minds, differing talents and strengths and weaknesses etc. And think about how people have lived in so many different circumstances from the times in history, family class status, social setting, environment, etc. All these differing life situations that do arise from day to day... so there will not be 2 people who turn out the same, all will be unique. It requires all the vase differences in what people experience to have every single one to be somewhat different.
So I think God's plan is to bring about all the people that He wants that are a multitude of varied personalities now in this
present age as a base model from which to work with. For a few now, but for most in the next age the character traits that we have developed are what God will take and keep anything He deems as good and purge out the rest. I do believe that the judgment will be a process of complete justice for all. Every person will be dealt with exactly as they have need of, from lovingly caring for the young and innocent, to harsh as needs to be for the reprobate.
I have wondered about those that have lived extremely wicked lifestyles and as you commented, "we can and will only make the one possible choice we could have made in any scenario in our lives... because it also means that my life could not have been any different, and so it means that this is the life that I was predestined to have" and I agree.
Since I believe we have a totally just God and will bring every single being to perfection in the most just manner... so could it be that those that have been the worse sinner and will require the most purging and be brought out of the most damnable life situations, will they be those who realize they have the most to be thankful for?
I truly believe that even those that may have been born into a life of crime, live a long life as an hardened criminal with gross acts of inhumanity, and you get the picture, even the very most reprobate. Once these people have been purged and cleansed and taught to understand God's truth and believe them, as all will be perfected, so then these people will too have their heart turned to God. When they realize how far God has brought them and how much God has done for them, their happiness, joy and praise for God will be greater.
I believe that the only conclusion that any and every human being will ultimately come to, no matter what their physical life was, is that God gave them life and brought them to perfection and deserves all praise, honor and glory forever. This is my sincere belief from all I have studied, hope it may help you a bit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
cjwood:
kat, it helped me. i believe that what you have expressed is the truth of what is going on in this age. thanks for posting your thoughts.
claudia
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