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Where is Jesus came from?
santgem:
--- Quote from: Kat on November 03, 2013, 08:29:07 AM ---
Hi santgem,
Ray was asked a question at a Bible study about what he had said at the conference about birthing wisdom, was that the Son... here is an excerpt.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=10538.0 ------------
but when He came up with the master plan He birthed it, with great pain and sorrow. That’s why He used the word birth and he didn’t create it. Before it was birthed it wasn’t here.
So God came to a time…Well you say, ‘if eternity is like a circle, where is that?’ I don’t know. I’m not saying that I understand all the mysteries of the universe. I’m saying I can understand the things that He teaches us. So if there was a time, if wisdom was birthed, then that is an event that happened some ‘time.’ Then there was a time before it was birthed that it wasn’t here. Then there was after it was birthed, it was here.
v
[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.] No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom.
It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities. Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God? Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’ No, He was called the Son before that. So how then, was wisdom necessary to make a Son? Well where did He come up with the idea of a Son anyway? Where did He come up with the idea of a family? Well He did, because we are here and we have family relationship and so on. Where did He come up with that? Did mothers and fathers and children and aunts and uncles and cousins did they exist before the creation of the heavens? No. Well then God came up with that.
You say, ‘no, God inhabited eternity. In eternity nothing changes and nothing happens, so therefore we existed and the universe existed before it was created. Because if He didn’t create it and then He created it, then something happened.’ Are we saying that He made it first and then it entered His mind what He did? Like He said, ’Oh my, look what I did, I wonder where that idea came from.’ It’s nonsense.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Thank you Kat for additional info.....
[Comment from attendee: Is wisdom Jesus? He is the first fruit, He is the beginning.] No, it’s got to be more than that, because God birthed ‘it’ and the it has to do with ability and cleverness and all of those, if you look up the definition of wisdom.
It means more than just bringing into being some other being that possesses these qualities. Because, quite frankly, if Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then when did He become the Son of God? Well you will say, ‘when He was born.’ No, He was called the Son before that.
Now then, if Jesus was called the Son of God before he was actually born and Jesus is more than to be called wisdom by the mere definition that we have available now,
Will it be God the Father was called Father before he actually have a Son?
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
"These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)
Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)
Rev 3:14 And, unto the messenger of the assembly, in Laodicea, write:—These things, saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God: (Rotherham)
“Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation: NLTRev 3:14(NLT)
Footnote:
* 3:14 Or the ruler, or the source.
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. (NIV)
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: (NASB)
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things: (HNV)
Kat did you not consider other translations of Rev. 3:14. In my opinion some translations is like saying that Jesus is the source of the beginning of creation of God not Jesus as the First creation of God. What is your opinion?
Kat:
--- Quote ---Kat did you not consider other translations of Rev. 3:14. In my opinion some translations is like saying that Jesus is the source of the beginning of creation of God not Jesus as the First creation of God. What is your opinion?
--- End quote ---
Hi santgem, not sure what you are saying here... what I gather from Rev 3:14 is that the Son was brought forth from the Father to be the Beginning - the Head - the Ruler of what is to be accomplished in this whole creation (physical and spiritual). The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself as God over it all and the Son is a Being/Man, like those that were to be in this creation. He had to be the first thing in order to get it all started, because it was the Son that would be used to do everything else, of course through the power of the Holy Spirit.
I think that Father and Son is the best may to describe what the relationship is of God family, though any physical analogy really is inadequate to describe the spiritual... but it is the terms that Jesus Christ used. So it was the Son (even before His physical birth) throughout the OT that we hear of and there are a few verses that say as much.
Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 3:25 "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."
He was always the Son from when He was first brought forth from the Source of all/everything (even what is beyond this creation), the Father, but He also was always a Man, look at His description in the OT.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
This is the glory of the Lord God, the Son, yet it is still in the form of a man, which is something that we can comprehend.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John from Kentucky:
Santgem is correct in quoting several translations of Revelation 3:14
In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.
If you study further into the Greek words arche and ktisis in Revelation 3:14, you find the principal meaning to be Jesus is the Origin or Source of creation. Jesus is not a creature.
In the Greek New Testament, the word for God is Theos.
The Scriptures prove that Jesus is God (Theos).
1st witness, the Word was God (Theos). John 1:1
2nd witness, Thomas called Jesus My Lord and My God (Theos). John 20:28
God (Theos) is the Creator not the created (creature).
1st witness that Jesus is the Creator God, ...all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17
2nd witness, John referring to Jesus said, ...the world was made by Him. John 1:10
Kat:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12075.0.html ----
Dear Andy:
Thank you for your email and questions. I'm afraid that I cannot go into much detail at present, although I have spend probably a couple of hundred hours on this subject this past year, and intend to write a paper on it in the future, but not today. It will probbly be titled: "Is Jesus GOD?"
A couple of things: When I wrote that paper on the Trinity (about ten years ago), I unfortunately allowed myself to use terms that trinitarians use (example, "person"). I have since spend many many hours in the Scriptures on the trinitarian use of that word "person." It is a most unforunate choice of words to describe God. Conclusion: Jesus IS a person, whereas His Father is NOT a person. Don't have time to prove it now, but that's the truth. And no, I do not teach that the Holy Spirit OF God is a person. I have no idea where you thought that I might be teaching that.
While it is true that Jesus did NOT say: "I and My Father are One GOD," there nonetheless, needs further clarification on that verse, which I did not cover in my paper. My new paper will be rather lengthy, I'm afraid, as the subject of the divinity of Jesus is a huge subject.
Here is another point for you to ponder until my paper comes out (and no, it won't be in the six months, so don't be looking for it any time soon). Look at I Cor. 8:6 again. Notice that it does not say, "But to us there is but one God, the Father." (Period). Nor does it say, "One Lord Jesus Christ." (Period). There is more to consider. Is this verse saying that "God the Father" is the ONLY God," and that Jesus, therefore cannot also be "God?" For sure Jesus can't be HIS OWN FATHER, but can Jesus also be "the ONE God?" Look at that first statement again, as it IS in the Scripture as I will re-emphasize the words to make this one point: "But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS." There is only One God, the Father, OUT OF Whom ALL IS" (Concordant Literal New Testament and The Emphatic Diaglott).
Then concerning Jesus we read: "One Lord Jesus Christ, BY Whom are all things." "Of" and "by" are two different words--"of" is applied to the Father, where as "by" is applied to the Son. Actually the word "by" is better translated "through," but that doesn't change the fact that they are different and are applied to different actions.
(See Rotherham's emphasized Bible, The Emphatic Diaglott, and The Concordant Literal New Testament for verification of the word "through"). All creation is "OF" God the Father, but since Jesus was also created, not all creation is OF Jesus. But the act of creation is attributed to Jesus (See I Collosians, etc.), hence it is "through" Jesus that all the things of creation are brought into existence by or "through" Jesus Christ.
I'll have to end with that. As I said, this is a very large subject, but I will try to write on it in the future, God willing.
God be with you,
Ray
John from Kentucky:
Kat,
Would it do any good to point out that the email you quoted is dated August 7, 2010, and Ray's email, which I list below, is dated April 2, 2011? In the later email Ray states his previous writings did not take into consideration all the Scriptures on the subject.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html
It is almost like there is a shroud over peoples ability to see and understand.
John
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