"Jesus preached to people in HELL!"

[theophilus]

1Co 1:21  For, seeing that, in the wisdom of God, the world, through its wisdom, did not get to know God, God was well-pleased—through the foolishness of the thing proclaimed, to save them that believe.

[Kat]

Certainly each of us should strive to understand these truths so that we can give an answer if asked. I think that requires us to feed the Spirit with study of the Word, meditation and pray.

2Ti 2:15  Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

But it does seem that very few are given the gift to become a teacher/preacher like Ray to explain these things so well to others. "He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers" (Eph 4:11).

[Abednego]

For some reason although it wasn't hard Dennis' response made me remember this.

TL;DR Witnessing didn't work.

It was circa 1982.  I had moved a few towns away from my job and would commute by bus every day.  After a while you got to see the same people every day. I was head over heels in love with Jesus. (my first love although I didn't know it at the time) I carried my Bible and read it daily on the bus for the 40 min commute.

There was a guy I later found out was a lawyer who rode the bus every day with me.  It was kind of like going to church and sitting in the same pew. We all sat in the same seats each day, and he was always sitting in the seat across the aisle from me.  He made a comment about my Bible one day, and we started talking.  Turns out he didn't believe in God.  The more we talked the more excited I got.  Gotta admit I can get passionate about some things.

I hadn't been "born again" for my first year yet and I was still in  gotta save the world mode.  Having had a rather checkered past it was that much more important to share what I had found with the world. After all, it was my duty to help save them from hell.

I was getting so exasperated, because for the life of me I could not understand how someone could believe there was no God. At one point, I looked up and can't imagine the look on my face.  There were about 25 - 30 people on the bus, and each and every one of them had turned in their seats and were enjoying our exchange.

Long story short......These people had been seeing me 5 days a week for almost a year.  NOT ONE came up to me with a question or comment about anything I had said.  That doesn't mean a seed hadn't been planted, but regardless they weren't seeds of truth.

[Rhys 🕊]

Seems like there are many excuses in this post about not sharing which I don't understand as it's a joy to share the truth and not the lies of Christendom.

Rom 10:14  How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"

Of course God has His roles for all of us but all of them don't excuse one for not sharing the good news and it is good news. The church teaches it's bad news yet still call it good news when it's not. Who cares if they get it or not as God said His word shall go forth and not return empty.

I feel sad for all Ray did when I hear such comments as he seemed a man that spoke up to what God was doing in him without the excuses.

Always speak His truth in love whenever you can

Eph 4:14  so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15  Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph 4:16  from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.


Paul and the disciples went out there and spoke the word so why not us. Maybe because it's difficult and hard we don't but the persecution should be part of our lives

Mat 5:10  "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11  "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Mat 5:12  Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mat 5:13  "You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
Mat 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Mat 5:15  Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.
Mat 5:16  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.


2Ti 3:12  Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

I'm not sure how you get persecuted from people who ask you about the hope you have, that's never happened to me. The times when I get persecuted are when I take a stand and say that's not right because this is what God's word says. Other than those times I don't experience persecution but maybe others get persecuted some other way......don't know. It seems that's what happened to the disciples.

2Ti 4:2  preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
2Ti 4:3  For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4  and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2Ti 4:5  As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Does not seem to hard to understand. I wonder why we just don't do what the word says, that's what I admired about Ray as that is what he did so why not do the same. I think I know why in the next verses:

Mar 4:3  "Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow.
Mar 4:4  And as he sowed, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
Mar 4:5  Other seed fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil, and immediately it sprang up, since it had no depth of soil.
Mar 4:6  And when the sun rose, it was scorched, and since it had no root, it withered away.
Mar 4:7  Other seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no grain.
Mar 4:8  And other seeds fell into good soil and produced grain, growing up and increasing and yielding thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."
Mar 4:9  And he said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
Mar 4:10  And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables.
Mar 4:11  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
Mar 4:12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."
Mar 4:13  And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
Mar 4:14  The sower sows the word.
Mar 4:15  And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.
Mar 4:16  And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy.
Mar 4:17  And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
Mar 4:18  And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word,
Mar 4:19  but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
Mar 4:20  But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."

As Ray says from Winning souls for Jesus

http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

I'm asked why I teach the Truths of God if "All is of God," and God does all the choosing and drawing? Because that is HOW God operates. God uses the foolishness of preaching as one of His means by which He communicates with His Elect:


"Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Has not God made foolish  [Gk: 'stupid'] the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:20-21).

It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.

It is GOD who does the calling:


"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen  [Who? 'GOD'] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty..." (I Cor. 1:26-27).

I feel that our life and our words should share the good news, live it and speak it. This email from Ray covers it for me

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10897.msg94142.html#msg94142

i've been reading your website for over a year now and i feel like a blind person who has recieved sight.  so sorry to hear about your condition and you're in my prayers.  i've heard i think it's B17 in apricot seeds (the nut part inside the seed) can actually heal cancerous cells.  you can buy them by the bag-full in most asian markets, although i'm sure your kung-fu friend would have told you about them if there's any validity to this rumour.

i really want to thank you for the very extensive work you've put into your writing.  the first time i opening up your website, i read for a few minutes and had to stop and pray right away because i was scared.  i could tell there was something to this and i was scared it was satan who had planted the many questions in my head that lead me to your site, and scared that it was satan who led me to your site.  but after reading with a critical eye for months, i finally allowed myself to relax and really absorb the truth.  i want to shout from the rooftops about how very good the good news is, but something holds me back. in particular, i want to use my facebook status to tell people how amazing Gods love really is. this might sounds silly to you but of course God can use the silliness of facebook to teach us about himself too.  i was just wondering if i SHOULD be shouting from the rooftops, or just being salt and light and letting the holy spirit do its work?  i'm not bothered in the least if i don't hear from you.  rest, pray and wait on the lord.  (maybe that should be the advice to me?)

GOD BLESS YOU MR. SMITH!

-Vicki


Dear Vicki:  There are numerous people who use a plethora of methods to introduce others to our Bible-Truths site.  I don't discourage anyone from showing others the Truths of God by whatever  method they feel comfortable in using.  You might receive some persecution, but hey, that's one of the blessings that come along with defending and obeying our Lord.  There is no better defense of the Gospel than one's own OBEDIENCE and KNOWLEDGE.  Peter said we are to be ready always to have the proper answers and information regarding what we believe and why we believe it.

May God be with you always,

Ray


I know for me I need to get out of the church mindset that you must share or else but rather come from a place of joy and love that His truth has set you free in. That seems something you want to share and would love to do. God will do His will but what joy there is when He uses us to do it through so why not take the opportunities when they come. That is what I see in Ray.

Rhys

[Rene]

I feel sad for all Ray did when I hear such comments as he seemed a man that spoke up to what God was doing in him without the excuses.

I feel sad that you made this comment.  Ray is dead and he did all that God intended him to do.  God is very much ALIVE and in control and HE will finish the work in us.

René

[dave]

I feel sad for all Ray did when I hear such comments as he seemed a man that spoke up to what God was doing in him without the excuses.

I feel sad that you made this comment.  Ray is dead and he did all that God intended him to do.  God is very much ALIVE and in control and HE will finish the work in us.

René

[cjwood]

after all my years as a member of this forum, it seems that the direction of it is going more to airing our differences and disputing, than coming together in the joy and love and inspiration of the Spirit which our Father God gave to us.  ray smith's work and study was a tool our Father provided for all who comes to this website.  ray was a man of God who is now gone.  the Spirit of our Father has so much more for us to discover.  but we have to go to His Word daily, keeping it in the forefront of our minds.  there is so much power and might and saving grace in the wonderful Spirit of God!  where is the inspiration?  where is the lifting each other up as spoken of in the scriptures?  is it only available in the "testimonies/prayers/fellowship section"?  that section is used as much for funny jokes as it is for prayer requests or testimonies.  what is going on???

claudia

[Kat]

I think how one views the forum is a matter of perspective, we each see it from our own frame of reference, how we are feeling about things. There is a large difference in the knowledge of truth in those who come here, some just having their eyes opened to those studying these truths for years.

I think that there are many productive discussions that go on here, even when there is a element of disagreement in them. But God's Spirit is certainly here and is working to teach us We grow by learning from our mistakes, if we study and get the basic principles down we can learn to discern this truth from heresy. We have to patiently allow for all that come here. Some being new to this truth, but I know that I'm still working out different aspects of the truth in my mind while here on the forum. We all have had some very differing life experiences and so there's differences, and discussing them is one of the best way I have found to come to a good/better understanding of something.

We just need to let the Spirit work as it will, not necessarily the way we think it should be doing.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[loretta]

I think how one views the forum is a matter of perspective, we each see it from our own frame of reference, how we are feeling about things. There is a large difference in the knowledge of truth in those who come here, some just having their eyes opened to those studying these truths for years.

Agreed. All is of God.

[Duane]

SECOND VERSE--SAME AS THE FIRST!

6 years after being introduced to this site--I have had the same experience as lovely "Loverly"! 
My attacks are just as vicious and digging as the day I proclaimed to be a "B-T'er"!
My sister's just attacked me yesterday for having the audacity to say that:
"Jesus IS the Savior of the World" and will NOT fail!  (No sense going on and on as you all have experienced it!)

[rick]

I found this from Rays writings, winning souls for Jesus ( Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind.)

[Ian 155]

Hadn't you been given eyes to see and a friend of yours came up to you telling you about the nonexistence of hell and the salvation of all, you too would shun your friend. Their reaction is not weird. It is to be expected by us.

I now see that what's also to be expected is our attitude of disbelief when we see in others the same blindness that used to plague our lives.

"Oh the garbage that they pass along to these people as truth!"

We used to swallow this same garbage hook, line and sinker before.

Let us not allow a spirit of provocation get the best of us.

I agree with you .... we all swallowed it, I think we all have to, until we get called out of it, that is by the grace of God alone. So let us be thankful, His mercies endure forever, let us not be prideful or arrogant toward those who are still to be called - Jesus wept for Jerusalem or the world system which is passing .We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves ,Gods children are his - righteous and unrighteous, so who are we except sons and daughters of the most high by Grace we are being saved.When exposure is needed we expose however we are to do it gently and with Love.Who can say your own doing brought you understanding or to this site. Ray was a vessel and used, we cannot possibly begin to understand his suffering. We were all blinded like Paul we were all led into the fire and we will all be saved.

Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Remember family, these folks cant help, but be blind.

Once I found this truth out I have stopped or been stopped from getting into arguments and quarrels, my own wife included.

Remember the 1st miracle, we are mere vessels, being filled with Jesus, The Word, then once filled with the water of the word, we are turned/changed into wine,then we are given to the Father to sample - no doubt we will taste good ... in his time not ours.

Pride does come /arrive, before a fall

walking in His grace

Ian

[theophilus]

Hello Ian. I for one, experienced this disbelief that how could other Christians not see what I was now seeing. I'm certain that others have experienced it too. I will not say that a 100% of people whose eyes God has opened to the truth go through the same thing. But a good number of us have.

[theophilus]

I was thinking about the words Preaching and Teaching.

According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:

Kērussein [to preach] does not mean the delivery of a learned and edifying or hortatory discourse in well-chosen words and a pleasant voice. It is the declaration of an event. Its true sense is "to proclaim" (III:683-718).

Friedrich, the author of this article on Preaching in this dictionary, shows that the preaching of Jesus and the Apostles was the proclamation that the Kingdom of God had arrived. Their "preaching" was not educational, seeking to impart an ever-growing knowledge of the Scriptures upon the hearers, but was closer to the task of a herald who traveled throughout the land, declaring that changes were coming from the king, and what these changes meant for the people of the kingdom.

Preaching was this declaration, this proclamation, that the Kingdom of God had arrived.

According to the author, the preaching of Jesus "did not expound the Scripture like the rabbis. He did not tell people what they must do. His teaching was proclamation. He declared what God was doing among them today" (III:713).

Friedrich explains the differences between teaching and preaching:

"Teaching is usually in the synagogue, whereas proclamation takes place anywhere in the open. Different hearers are present. Teaching is the exposition of Scripture in synagogue worship; it is for the righteous with a view to increasing their knowledge. Preaching is the herald's cry ringing out in the streets and villages in houses. The herald goes to all, to publicans and sinners; he attracts the attention of those who are without and who do not attend the gatherings of the righteous" (III:713).

The message preached was the message announced, the message taught was the message explained, clarified, and applied, with exhortation to live by it.

I think I read somewhere that he whose eyes are opened must have been a part of Babylon. In this way, he must heed God's call to "come out of her [Babylon] my people".

If we are to preach or herald, what would we preach? Would we preach the nearness of the kingdom of God? would we preach universal reconciliation? maybe we could buy some air time at a local AM radio station and do this? I used to "preach" like this with my former pastor every Saturday night after the service.

In my case, no former inhabitant of Babylon came up to me preaching universal reconciliation, the nonexistence of hell, etc., etc. In my opinion, God led me, via the internet, to bible-truths.com and Mike Vinson's website. After having read some papers of Ray, I confronted Ray via email and DESTROYED his claims. Well, so I thought! Hehehe! I could kind of accept God reconciling ALL PEOPLE, but the Adversary and his minions? What a heresy!!! But good old Ray shot back an email that put me in my place. I stood chided and corrected. Yes, I received a dose of Ray's bluntness. I can laugh about it now, but at the time, I was seeing red! How dare this guy?! I mean, who the heck was he? God's means to reach me, of course!

So, I suppose that it was Ray Smith's HERESIES' EXPOSING PAPERS (TEACHING? CLARIFICATION OF SCRIPTURES? NOT PREACHING!) the means used by God to open my eyes. Having said this, I am confident that God had begun this work in me some good while before I ran into Ray's papers.

[Ian 155]

I think I would rather go with "Instructions" or "instructor "  a few translations call Jesus, Teacher

Psalm 40 v 10 I have not kept the good news of your justice hidden in my heart; I have talked about your faithfulness and saving power. I have told everyone in the great assembly of your unfailing love and faithfulness.

[Felix]

Hi Loverly
I lost what I thought was a best friend over talking about these things. We both went to the
same church for years. Sometimes I think of all the wasted time that I spent sitting in church
just for the sake of being there.

My son never made a profession of faith when we were in church. It worried me to no end.
I felt like a failure as his dad, now I think that he was just more honest than the rest of us.

Felix