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Elect
Mike Gagne:
Amen Kat :D Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: (Philippians 3:13-20 KJV). I also believe those who are chosen for this high calling don't sin willingly, I guess that's for another post!! :D
Dave in Tenn:
Kat, Ray taught that Jesus Christ was 'lost'. But neither he nor scripture mean it like I've heard it all my life in church.
I'm aware that there are those teaching that Jesus was a sinner. Scripture squashes that for anybody without an idol of the heart to worship. But Jesus did DIE, according to Scripture, and he was 'saved' from death in resurrection.
While there may not be a 'verse' that says Jesus was saved from sin (and many other things), there is a multitude of examples where He who did not sin was 'saved' from sin (and many other things). But not in a way that means the same thing I've heard all my life in church. As I've said before, I am not interested in the least in 'that kind' of "salvation".
If He is to be my example, then in the fullness of time, I'm going to follow Him. No theological hoodoo, no religious assumption, no contradictory doctrinal understanding. I'm going to be saved (as in many ways I have already been saved) from all the things He was saved from...He who did not do or say ANYTHING apart from what His Father gave Him to say or do...who said of Himself, "of my own self, I can do nothing."
Examples?
Saved from Herod as an infant or toddler
Saved from Satan in the Wilderness
Saved from caving in to all manner of temptation (tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin)
Saved from the mob
Saved from the Scribes and Pharisees.
Saved from death.
There were also things He wasn't 'saved from', most notably dying Add being tempted, suffering, losing friends, the pain that comes from wisdom, unrequited love, and others.
I also don't want to have strife over words, but the way I've ended it in my own life is to try hard to understand them without theological baggage or preachers talking in my head. For a few of them (those pesky bible-words), at least, I've been saved already. Thanks, Ray.
I asked those questions out loud because those are the kinds of questions I've been asking in meditation. If they have been worth asking, they already have answers.
Rene:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on April 16, 2014, 03:39:36 PM ---
Kat, Ray taught that Jesus Christ was 'lost'. But neither he nor scripture mean it like I've heard it all my life in church.
--- End quote ---
Dave,
I've been thinking about this statement since you posted it yesterday and I just do not know what you are referring to. Where did Ray teach this? ???
René
Dave in Tenn:
I'll surrender. I really didn't think I was introducing some bizarre new doctrine. If Jesus being raised from the dead isn't being 'saved' from being 'appolumi' (lost, destroyed), then I don't know what it is.
If Jesus being tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin isn't being 'saved' from sin, then I don't know what salvation means. I just know it isn't some spiritual mustard that gets smeared on us before we can "go to heaven". As thanklful as I am for forgiveness and mercy, it's the only "salvation" that matters to me from this point forward, as I can't change the past. I want, like He was, to be empowered, graced, influenced, 'caused' not to sin. And I'm a large part hypocrite even to make THAT statement, because there are plenty of times I DON'T want that. I'm still being 'dragged'.
I'd delete my comments to stop any confusion, but they'd still be there in the quotes and "look" far worse than I ever imagined and certainly intended. Feel free to clean it up any way you see fit, or not.
Dave in Tenn:
From "23 minutes in Hell":
The Greek word "appolumi" has three basic meanings: "lose, perish, or destroy." Context can tell which of these three is most appropriate, however, context seldom defines the meaning or definition of a word. Here are a few examples:
LOSE/LOST from "appolumi" - The salt in Matt. 5:13, "lost" its flavor. The "lost" sheep in the wilderness that wondered from the 99 sheep was "found" (Luke 15:6). The prodigal Son of Luke 16:24, "...was dead, and is alive again; he was lost and is found." There is nothing "eternal" in the use of this word.
PERISH from "appolumi" - The Apostles were afraid they would "perish" in the sea (Matt. 8:25). Jesus taught in Luke 5:37 that new wine would cause old wine skins to "perish." In Luke 13:33, Jesus spoke of Himself when He said that a prophet cannot "perish" outside of Jerusalem. Jesus was that Prophet, that did "perish" - was crucified and killed IN Jerusalem.
DESTROY/DESTRUCTION from "appolumi" - In Matt. 2:13 Joseph is warned to take Jesus to Egypt, because Herod wanted to "destroy" Him. The Pharisees persuaded the Jews to save Barabbas and "destroy" Jesus (Matt. 27:20). And they later did "destroy"--crucify, kill, Jesus. In Luke 9:56, Jesus said:
"For the Son of man is not come to destroy [Gk: appolumi--destroy, lose, perish] men's lives, but to save them."
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