> General Discussions
John 5:37
bob:
Thanks JFK I believed this all along. I was looking for loop holes and you just shut them as far as I am concerned. Back on track====== Bob
Ian 155:
Bob,
I believe all of this is a matter of understanding, we are given spiritual ears and eyes.(if we ask ,are led to ask)all of us see dimly ...1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then(as we grow in him) face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
So i would think we are in process of getting to know him or see him for who he really is (this to me is the perfecting process).
We see The Father with spiritual eyes ,the eyes of our hearts If we are at a stage where" ïf you have seen me ,You have seen the father" our understanding (eyes) are being opened.
So the statement "no MAN has seen the father nor heard his Voice" could this possibly apply to "NO CARNAL, SELF INDULGENT BEAST" who is prideful in his understanding of literal ,logical translations
Seems I need to ask for more grace in order to understand. I have been reminded of a few scriptures....
The lords Messenger said to Moses you cannot see my face and live ( is this when we see his face we die spiritually)?Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Lest a kernel fall to the ground and die it cannot (see GOD) perhaps.....
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.( Does Moses represent Christ in this verse?he is about to die (because he has seen God with his spiritual eyes) and Joshua is getting prepared to lead) ??
As I said Interesting Question
Its a matter of the degree of understanding one has been given at least that is what I believe
indianabob:
Folks,
I have been told that the phrase "face to face" could have been translated "i have been in the presence of".
In those days before telephones, ;D when dignitaries visited a foreign nation they spoke with authority from having it delegated to them by a ruler such as a king or emperor. So the credentials were proven by the statement that the message came from the King and not from some lower level servant.
So when the English translation says I have seen the face of God or [god a superior person] it could have been translated I believe that I felt God's presence and am sure that the message given to me in my mind or via a vision was from God. Of that they had no doubt.
The translation of foreign tongues is a very subjective discipline and we need to be careful to discover whether it is a word for word translation even in the case where there is no exact word in the other language or whether it is a translation of what was meant by the original author, but put in terms that are close to what would have been understood by a native speaker living during the exact time period in question.
That's why it is dangerous to take a statement from scripture that stands alone, when we should compare the statement with the whole of scripture in context.
I do believe that Ray Smith covered this topic in his letters.
Indiana Bob
Kat:
Hi Ian, most translations do not even have the word "man" in the verse.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
And if you use that logic then Jesus Christ was a man when He made that comment, so I think it included Himself that had not seen the Father's face. The Father is not a person or even a being to have a face or voice and that is what the Son was for, "the Word made flesh" and "the image of God."
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory (that was speaking of the believers with the Spirit indwelling), the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
But in the account of Moses in Exodus 33 in verse 11 it says "so the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." Then down in verse 18 it seems that Moses is asking for something different, v. "he said, "Please, show me Your glory" and that is when the LORD said in verse 20, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." So it seems the same words face or face to face can mean something different in different places in Scripture, I guess that is where spiritual discernment comes in. When the LORD appeared to somebody in the OT, and that would always have been the Son who would become Jesus Christ, like in verse 11 it seems to have been in a image/form that was like a normal human being. But the glorious 'face' was a totally different thing, but He did allow Moses a glimpse.
Exo 33:22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
v. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."
All of the images of people seeing "the LORD" in the OT is the Son, not the Father, but even then it would not be the Son in His glorious state of being.
Gen 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land."
Gen 26:24 And the LORD appeared to him (Isaac) the same night and said...
1Sam 3:21 Then the LORD appeared again in Shiloh. For the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
I think there is a parable in the exchange between Moses and the LORD in Ex 33, as is usually the case. Since Moses predated Christ appearing in the flesh, and there Moses wanted to 'see' or maybe know His glory, but as you were talking about the spiritual, I think this is speaking of the "face" or presence that reflects the spiritual/glorious aspect of His Being. This glory may have been reserved to be revealed more so later, to the elect as it was revealed to Paul.
2Co 12:2 I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago--whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known--such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;
v.7 and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
santgem:
The fact is, God has an image!
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."Gen 1:26
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