John 5:37

[JD]

Ray understood the truth that God is One.  Just read the end of his creed, which I have attached below.  But as Ray said somewhere before, "There is a difference in knowing a truth and being able to explain a truth."  Ray did not have the time or energy at the end to fully explain this truth.

I talked to Ray on the phone about this.  I said I was stunned at where he was going with this enigma of God matter, and I thought most members on the Forum wouldn't get it.  Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit leads.  I respected his wishes and did not discuss this matter further with him.

But at the end of Ray's creed, where he says Jesus is God's autobiography, I immediately understood what Ray was saying.

It doesn't take great intelligence to understand, just knowledge of what the English word "autobiography" means.

When someone writes an autobiography, are they writing about someone else?  Or.  Are they writing about themselves?  Easy peasy.

http://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm


Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed.  However, it would be a waste of my time to present them.  Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.

In 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul presents one of the master Scriptures, which clearly explains the nature of God.  But who believes it?  Most have to explain it away.

However, in the Scripture just below, in 1 Cor. 8:7, Paul states, However not all men have this knowledge...  Paul was speaking to the Church.  Few had this knowledge 2,000 years ago, and few of the chosen ones have this knowledge today.  Which is by the will of God.  I believe it will be the age to come when Jesus explains the nature of God to His Elect.  But I thank God (through Ray) that He gave me a foretaste of this understanding.  I find it very comforting.

Bravo John. Bravo - great post!

[AwesomeSavior]

Wow... just wow... The arrogance and the lack of humility on display here in some of these posts, before the Almighty, is astonishing, almost to the point of being nauseating (you know who you are). Perhaps a good reading of 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 (the WHOLE chapter) would help, not to mention praying to God to see that we are nothing but the dust of the Earth.

[indianabob]

Hi AwesomeSavior,
Appreciate your comment but would like to add some "moderation" of my own.

Everyone here is in learning mode and God knows how much understanding HE has graced us with, so God is not offended at our limitations and emotional emphasis or lack of humility in certain comments. God would much rather we "shake our fists" in His sovereign face than to fight among ourselves. God can take it in stride without getting mad. Plus it gives us practice repenting on our knees. 

God is a loving Father and knows our frame and when we may comment in ignorance or from ego or even arrogance God just chuckles and considers the source. After all God put us here to stumble and skin our knees so to speak and to learn tolerance and to learn it the "hard way". The main thing God wants us to learn is to play well together and try to see things through the eyes of our brethren and to be always ready to forgive an offense.
Hebrews 2:6-8 asks what is man that thou are mindful of him/them.
It is speaking of the Lord Jesus and of course of Jesus' brethren

And yes we are nothing but dust physically, but what potential we have...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The main point I wish to make is that we should be able to state our views curtly without offending a brother too much. It's sort of like having ourselves corrected by a spouse or one of our own kids who love us and yet understand little of the world.

I do sincerely appreciate your views as well.

Kindly offered, Indiana Bob

[santgem]

Greetings everyone!

Trivia!

      Did you know that after Jesus comes out of the Father, God the Father can not create things without Jesus Christ............ ???huh!???what...%^&*()_%$#@!_+(*&DUH!!!!

[JD]

Yeah John - you know who you are! 

[AwesomeSavior]

Indiana Bob:

You are an excellent role model for all of us. Thank you for your insightfulness. Hebrews 13:17 comes to mind: "Believe them that are highly esteemed, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

God Bless.

[Ian 155]

Jesus is God's autobiography, I immediately understood what Ray was saying.

It doesn't take great intelligence to understand, just knowledge of what the English word "autobiography" means.

Chapter and verse please ..

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exists."

[Ian 155]

Interesting - Col 1:15

The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn," and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here.

Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:

•Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)

•Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created  "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable.  That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14) and is also the first born son of Mary.  In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things.

AND WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM

[Kat]

Greetings everyone!

Trivia!

      Did you know that after Jesus comes out of the Father, God the Father can not create things without Jesus Christ............ ???huh!???what...%^&*()_%$#@!_+(*&DUH!!!!

I'm thinking you are referring to this Scripture.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

I understand your comment, but I don't see how this puts any limits on the Father.  I consider it this way, that Jesus Christ was brought forth to be the Creator of THIS creation, that is the "all things" the Scripture is speaking of. The Son was brought to be as that part of the Father (God) for the purpose of this creation, it is "for Him." The Father chose to do it this way, but that was His determination, not a limitation of how He had to do it and certainly does not limit Him in any other way.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. We are all studying deeply into the Scripture in search of the truth, it is a blessing to be able to study here together with like minded people until we all come into the unity of faith in God.

Eph 4:13  until all of us are united in the faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of development in the Messiah.

[Joel]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I think God spoke and that created Jesus Christ the Word as we know him.
When Jesus was ministering he always spoke the Word and that brought the results, the same as in the beginning at creation, "Let there be..."

Joel

[theophilus]

Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed.  However, it would be a waste of my time to present them.  Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.

Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info.

On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?

I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!

Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit?  But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?

I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know?

I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!

[theophilus]

Interesting - Col 1:15

The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn," and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here.

Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:

•Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)

•Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created  "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable.  That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14) and is also the first born son of Mary.  In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things.

AND WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM

And the inescapable conclusion is: WE SHALL BE LIKE GOD HIMSELF!

[John from Kentucky]

Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed.  However, it would be a waste of my time to present them.  Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.

Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info.

On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?

I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!

Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit?  But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?

I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know?

I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!

You do not have a clue what you're talking about, not a clue.

And no, you do not know what an autobiography is.  The explanation you gave is of a biography.  You need to educate yourself as to what an autobiography is.  In Ray's Creed, he was contrasting a biography with an autobiography.  Two different words, with different meanings.

As to Scriptures, I am old fashioned.  I still read and use books.  I print Scriptures out on paper and organize them by subject matter following the scripture that says, "Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

Another thing you do not understand is that all understanding of scriptural truth comes from God and God alone.  His Words are Spirit, and only the Spirit of God gives understanding.  No human can ever understand any scripture solely by human understanding.

Jesus also tells us not to give something of value to someone who cannot appreciate or understand the value of a truth.

Finally, the Forum does have a no teaching rule, which limits how much we can discuss certain matters.

[cjwood]

oh dear God, here it goes again.   

cj

[santgem]

Greetings everyone!

Trivia!

      Did you know that after Jesus comes out of the Father, God the Father can not create things without Jesus Christ............ ???huh!???what...%^&*()_%$#@!_+(*&DUH!!!!

I'm thinking you are referring to this Scripture.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

I understand your comment, but I don't see how this puts any limits on the Father.  I consider it this way, that Jesus Christ was brought forth to be the Creator of THIS creation, that is the "all things" the Scripture is speaking of. The Son was brought to be as that part of the Father (God) for the purpose of this creation, it is "for Him." The Father chose to do it this way, but that was His determination, not a limitation of how He had to do it and certainly does not limit Him in any other way.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. We are all studying deeply into the Scripture in search of the truth, it is a blessing to be able to study here together with like minded people until we all come into the unity of faith in God.

Eph 4:13  until all of us are united in the faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of development in the Messiah.

Hello Kat,
Greetings!

i will make myself clear, i am not and never thinking that i put any limits on the Father.
(thanks Kat for the response that you gave me the opportunity to explain more)

As you all know that most of the people go directly to God without Jesus.
They are praying directly and asking God without Jesus.
They know God but they don't know Jesus!
They say that never the Father had the son for he is not human, blah, blah, blah and some other things!

What am i saying is that;

In this present world, we would only know Jesus and the only God Jesus, until God the Father will be all in all! And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.1Co 15:28


God the Father can do everything without the help of anything but he loves the Son and it is only through the Son, It is always through Jesus, and even the  Father's will!

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Jhn 3:35

[cheekie3]

John from Kentucky / Kat / All -

I believe Ray taught that "there is only one God (The Father and His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ)".

I believe Ray also taught that "some religions teach that Jesus is The Father".

Is Ray therefore not stating that "there is only one God (The Father and His Son The Lord Jesus Christ)" and also "Jesus is not The Father but the express image of His Father", as Jesus is the only one to come out of The Father, and all else come from The Father through the Son.

Is it not TRUE that we can only know The Father through the Son.

Regards, George.

[Ian 155]

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: this KJ version clearly suggests 2 or more persons

and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, ( we are separate, here ...that is In the beginning, before/whilst Christ is being formed in us, we are "them" not a part of "Our" yet) we will contribute/play a roll in the transforming of many though - just as Christ and the apostles

and

creating is El ohim man in his image (Rays translation) "his" image understood as One - "our" image, understood as more than one

The "–im" ending denotes a plural masculine noun. Most of the time, however, when the noun is used for the true God it has singular masculine verbs. This is contrary to rules of Hebrew grammar.  ---- (Hebrew streams)


One family, relate that to yourself you have a father and Mother (bride and groom) whether they were legally married or not, you were born from a joining together by your Father and Mother who are ONE in The sight of God ..

Ephesians 5v30 because we are members of His body.31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."I think this is the multiplication process" 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. (Bride and Groom ) we are the church --

If Paul calls this is a great mystery, hey lets call it that, and get on with it - for he says
Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me

To Cheekie (George),quote "Is it not TRUE that we can only know The Father through the Son."

Brother it is true you can only know the Father by emulating the Son - no short cut into the sheep pen/fold .....Jn 14 v 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[theophilus]

Actually, I have accumulated multiple Scriptures that prove the truth of Ray's creed.  However, it would be a waste of my time to present them.  Only God's Spirit can give understanding of spiritual truths.

Then it should not be a problem for you to wait patiently.

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

I suspect that accumulating those multiple scriptures took you some time. If you have them saved in a text file, it would only take a copy and paste action in order to present them for the rest of us. It wouldn't even take you five minutes to share this info.

On another note, I would say that those scriptures "support" or "back up" Ray's creed. If those scriptures "prove" the truth of Ray's creed, then anyone of us could benefit from this list of scriptures, wouldn't you say?

I do understand what an autobiography is. In my own words, it is the story of someone's life; it could be abridged or unabridged. I think God's autobiography (to use Ray's term) is an abridged one, since not everything that Jesus said or did or experienced or lived was written down. We don't even know how Jesus reacted to so many things that He experienced. We have close to nothing about His childhood! How did Jesus deal with sexual temptations of any kind? Which illnesses did He suffer, as a child and as an adult? How did He come to the realization that He was THE Son of God? Did the Father reveal to Him all about what He was and His mission, or did Jesus remember everything on His own? As a child, did He remember being with the Father before His incarnation? Did He ever fall in love? Did He love another woman other than His mother (I'm not including His sisters)? So many questions!!!

Years ago, I had a thought about God knowing what it was to be a human being. How would He know what it feels to be us? Well, THROUGH Jesus Christ He would know--through THEIR shared oneness. But to say that Jesus is God's very own authorized autobiography is to say that Jesus himself is the God. Moreover, we would have to conclude that the God DIED; but who was in charge of the universe while He was dead? God's spirit?  But if He was dead, and dead IS DEAD, how could He bring Himself back to life?

I think someone wants to have his cake and eat it too. At the same time that oneness between the Father and Son is affirmed, a clear separation is also affirmed. We're told that 1 + 1 = 1 AND 2 also! Trinitarians invoke the arithmetic operation of multiplication and tell us that 1x1x1 = 1. Ta-da!!! Problem solved! We cannot ever get 3 as a result of multiplying 1 by itself three times! But we do have THREE ones. We could even multiply 1 by itself many more times and we would still get 1 as the answer. Benny Hinn claims in one of his teachings that there are 9, YES! 9!, persons in the Godhead. Multiplication is very useful, didn't you know?

I really don't get it that the teaching of, say, the forgiveness of sins can be explained to a believer with the help of the scriptures. They are not left with "If God doesn't reveal it to you, you will never understand it." But when it comes to the nature of God the principle of individual divine revelation is invoked. Hmmm!

You do not have a clue what you're talking about, not a clue.

And no, you do not know what an autobiography is.  The explanation you gave is of a biography.  You need to educate yourself as to what an autobiography is.  In Ray's Creed, he was contrasting a biography with an autobiography.  Two different words, with different meanings.

As to Scriptures, I am old fashioned.  I still read and use books.  I print Scriptures out on paper and organize them by subject matter following the scripture that says, "Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.

Another thing you do not understand is that all understanding of scriptural truth comes from God and God alone.  His Words are Spirit, and only the Spirit of God gives understanding.  No human can ever understand any scripture solely by human understanding.

Jesus also tells us not to give something of value to someone who cannot appreciate or understand the value of a truth.

Finally, the Forum does have a no teaching rule, which limits how much we can discuss certain matters.

My bad John!!!  The following day after I posted my comment it dawned on me that I missed something! So, no hard feelings about your suggestion for me to educate myself; though I do educate myself! I should show you the apps I have on my phone! They're awesome!

Brother, I work nights, from 6 pm to sometimes 6 am, so my mind is very tired at that time. I should refrain from posting anything at that hour, since I'm exhausted. I read and re-read my post to make sure I had everything right. I honestly didn't see what you saw with fresh eyes. So, don't run away with the idea that I lack enough education to tell the difference between biography and autobiography, or that I'm plainly stupid.

So, if you will give me the chance, I will give it a second try:

In my own words, autobiography is the story of someone's life as written by that someone. So, if you write an autobiography, it will be your life story in your own words. Close enough? I hope so. Like I said, in my own words, since I didn't consult an online dictionary.

Nothing wrong with your approach to bible study. What you do on paper can also be done using a computer or smart phone. Whatever works best for the person I say.

As regards understanding any scriptural truth, I do believe wholeheartedly it comes from God. But I also believe God uses means to convey that understanding. You could be a means to someone understanding a scriptural truth, just as bible-truths has been serving as a means for many people to arrive at or receive said understanding. Even nature has been declaring the glory of God.

You're right about your pearls. If I can't value them, I shouldn't want them.

Just as this forum has a No Teaching rule, which I'm not suggesting you break, shouldn't there be a way to hint that a topic is a Pearl, only to be discussed by those who understand it? In fact, you could create a private thread to which an unenlightened person like myself wouldn't have access. It's not fair that you be discussing a topic and pique our interest only to show us the Pearls card and leave us hanging.

You do well in not teaching, since I imagine that might not be your calling. I suppose I should stick to reading the things Ray taught in his papers, what other authors have written and take my LOA from this forum. It seems to be the path of least resistance.

[Rene]

John from Kentucky / Kat / All -

I believe Ray taught that "there is only one God (The Father and His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ)".

I believe Ray also taught that "some religions teach that Jesus is The Father".

Is Ray therefore not stating that "there is only one God (The Father and His Son The Lord Jesus Christ)" and also "Jesus is not The Father but the express image of His Father", as Jesus is the only one to come out of The Father, and all else come from The Father through the Son.

Is it not TRUE that we can only know The Father through the Son.

Regards, George.

[Kat]

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: this KJ version clearly suggests 2 or more persons

and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, ( we are separate, here ...that is In the beginning, before/whilst Christ is being formed in us, we are "them" not a part of "Our" yet) we will contribute/play a roll in the transforming of many though - just as Christ and the apostles

and

creating is El ohim man in his image (Rays translation) "his" image understood as One - "our" image, understood as more than one

The "–im" ending denotes a plural masculine noun. Most of the time, however, when the noun is used for the true God it has singular masculine verbs. This is contrary to rules of Hebrew grammar.  ---- (Hebrew streams)

Thinking about this Scripture that speaks of God as "Us" and "Our," it most certainly denotes a plurality. I do not believe it is as in 2 individuals though, because there is ONE God... but using that wording clearly shows they are not one and the same.

There is some kind of distinction between The Son and the Father, so that though 'one' God, it is multiple. I do not believe that distinction can be described in human terms, it is just a difference than what we have here, but without question there is a difference, because one died and the other did not.

It seems this "mystery" is in that there is no real physical way for us to describe what God is... but nonetheless I do think we can have a degree of comprehension from the Holy Spirit. I guess it's like Paul said after an experience that showed him wondrous things, but there was no way for him to explain it.

2Co 12:4  that he (Paul) was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak.

mercy, peace and love
Kat