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Mark10;18
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 30, 2014, 07:33:58 PM ---
This should also explain why He said "he who has seen Me has seen the Father," They are ONE, as in connected and not 2 separate beings.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
See now Kat, this is where things always got fuzzy for me.
If The Father and Jesus are not two separate beings, which I understand the argument for why they are not, how then can the Father be greater than the Son? How can Christ be created, the firstborn, while the Father was never created? The Father has no beginning but Christ does. How are these two, rather glaring differences, reconciled in one being?
Kindly,
Alex
Kat:
Well Alex, maybe the difference is we try and look at what They are the same way we see the human father and son to be... a human son is born of a father and becomes a separate being. The way I now understand the heavenly Father and Son to be is not exactly the same as the human is, but their using the term Father and Son is still quite fitting, it shows us the many qualities of that relationship that is like ours.
John 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
The Son most certainly "came forth from God" at a certain point in time, but I do not believe that means they are disconnected and separated. He is the direct voice and image of the Father created more like an extend from Himself, not to come apart from Him though and I don't see how it's that hard to think that the Father could bring this about from Himself and the Son aspect of Himself was not eternal. That's how the Father was working and Jesus has been working, the Father does all the work "through Him" (Col 1:16) or that part of Himself, because He is "in Jesus" (John 14:10), they/our/we are one.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
I guess it's like a direct internal thing, because there is no detachment between them. That's how Jesus said when you hear Him speaking you hear the Father, the Father is doing it all "through" Jesus.
John 14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
Doesn't this seem like a foreshadow of how we are in Christ and Christ is in us and the Spirit in us brings to our understanding who Christ is.
John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
John 17:23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
John 17:26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
2Peter 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
v. 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dave in Tenn:
Jesus was speaking to one not His disciple. Never without a parable did He speak to them. He knew very well Who He was.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:3 Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
1Sa 2:4 The bows of the mighty men are broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength.
1Sa 2:5 They that were full have hired out themselves for bread; and they that were hungry ceased: so that the barren hath born seven; and she that hath many children is waxed feeble.
1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
1Sa 2:7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
1Sa 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
Psa 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
Keep reading in that chapter and see what Jesus said to His disciples.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 30, 2014, 09:59:19 PM ---
Well Alex, maybe the difference is we try and look at what They are the same way we see the human father and son to be... a human son is born of a father and becomes a separate being. The way I now understand the heavenly Father and Son to be is not exactly the same as the human is, but their using the term Father and Son is still quite fitting, it shows us the many qualities of that relationship that is like ours.
John 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
The Son most certainly "came forth from God" at a certain point in time, but I do not believe that means they are disconnected and separated. He is the direct voice and image of the Father created more like an extend from Himself, not to come apart from Him though and I don't see how it's that hard to think that the Father could bring this about from Himself and the Son aspect of Himself was not eternal. That's how the Father was working and Jesus has been working, the Father does all the work "through Him" (Col 1:16) or that part of Himself, because He is "in Jesus" (John 14:10), they/our/we are one.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
I guess it's like a direct internal thing, because there is no detachment between them. That's how Jesus said when you hear Him speaking you hear the Father, the Father is doing it all "through" Jesus.
John 14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
Doesn't this seem like a foreshadow of how we are in Christ and Christ is in us and the Spirit in us brings to our understanding who Christ is.
John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
John 17:23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
John 17:26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
2Peter 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
v. 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
So is there a consensus on the forums as to this matter? It appears to me that Dave, you are in agreement with Kat based on your response? Furthermore, is this not what John from Kentucky has been trying to get across?
Again, I don't necessarily disagree but I'm still trying to work it all out. Especially knowing Christ can empty Himself of His divinity (which He did) and die, while the Father alone possess immortality. In this way, is it still sensible to conclude that the two are one and not separate beings? Can we not be one but separate beings? Is not the body of Christ one, each of us being individuals though? When a man cleaves to his wife, they twain are one but two bodies. Still two individuals. Am I rambling now? Maybe...
I guess it is possible for them to be one and not separate beings either as I understand ray saying the issue with this would be to therefor insinuate that we now have two gods, and we know there is only one God.
In Christ,
Alex
Kat:
Alex, I am not just trying to get everybody to agree with me, but to show a perspective that may not have been considered, for discussion. As we have seen with what Ray taught, so many times the truth turns out to be something we were not expecting it to be.
I have tried to study all the Scripture I could find on the subject and what they all combined mean (the sum of the truth) and point out what I think it says there. Certainly there are so many Scripture on this and more than what I can put in a post, but I am more than willing to consider any Scripture somebody can bring out that says something else or more about this.
All we can do is study the Scripture (I really believe this is key) and pray that God's Spirit will bring us understanding on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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