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What do you guys think about this.....Abortion !!
Abednego:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 22, 2014, 01:54:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: Abednego on July 22, 2014, 12:38:49 PM ---How do you explain Luke 1:39-41?
At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
--- End quote ---
Luke 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Well how do you explain that... does a baby in the womb have knowledge of what is going on in the world? Interesting how it connected with her being "filled with the Holy Spirit."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
I'm not in a place where I can view references and look up words at the moment. Or compare versions. So the word "and". Was the leaping and filling at the same time, or subsequent?
And what about Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Is "from his mother's womb" meaning upon exit, or while he was there? So many questions, not enough answers.
And JfK as far as killing the unborn.
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on July 22, 2014, 03:33:09 PM ---
But there was no provision in the Law for payment of monetary damages for the deceased. So that makes me wonder if an unborn child was considered a person, a living soul. Because if they were a living soul, then the punishment would have been death instead of the payment of monetary damages, if the unborn was killed intentionally.
--- End quote ---
If you kill a pregnant mother because you have an issue with her would it be considered an intentional death of the unborn? You have a problem with the mother not the child. If that were true (and I'm not saying it is), then the penalty would not be death for killing the child so that doesn't help explain whether the child is considered a person at that point. At least to me.
Kat:
Abednego, I'm not understanding all your questions about John the Baptist while in the womb. As it turned out John was prophesied and predestined to be born, at that time with Christ.
Mat 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
v. 2 and saying, Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
v. 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make His paths straight."
So John was to be born and prepare the way for Christ, but he was a normal baby and would not have had some kind of knowledge in the womb. I just don't see what you are getting at.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Abednego:
Kat, you missed what I was getting at, but probably because I'm not clear. I was responding to your
--- Quote ---where does "life" begin, in the physical sense?
--- End quote ---
I understand the pro life/culture of death debate over this question and why. I don't have interest in the debate myself. When I spoke of the baby leaping in the womb you stated thinking knowledge. I was only concerned with when life starts. As JfK stated
--- Quote ---The Scriptures do indicate that a human becomes a living soul when breathe enters the body.
--- End quote ---
There are many scriptures that back this up and you listed a lot of them.
But when you look at:
Lk 1:41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
and
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
That tells me there is something going on before Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So man becomes a living soul in Gen 2:7 I have to believe that. But what of the baby jumping in the womb.
And also my previous question:
And what about Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Is "from his mother's womb" meaning upon exit, or while he was there?
I'm not questioning when life begins form an abortion standpoint, I could care less. I'm just wondering if living soul starts at Gen 2:7, then what is going on in the womb? Obviously more than I realize, I just don't know what.
Hope I'm being clear.
Kat:
Okay Abednego, I get it now. God certainly does know if a baby is destined to be born and take the breath of life and John the Baptist certainly was, it is clear he was sanctified or set apart for a special work in his life. He was ordained to be who he was even before he was conceived, to be the prophet that prepared the way for Christ. So John was to be under the influence of the Spirit of God his whole life, as the Scripture says "filled with the Holy Spirit," like all the other prophets of the OT. The different translations go both ways on when the Holy Spirit filling him, "from" meaning before or at birth. I really don't see how that matters though.
I sometimes check what the Jewish beliefs are about a subject, because they have a heritage that holds strongly to what was taught in the OT from the prophets. It's interesting what they say about this.
from the site Judaism 101--
Abortion--
Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.
An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.
http://web.archive.org/web/20081217181056/http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm#Abortion
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--- Quote ---I'm just wondering if living soul starts at Gen 2:7, then what is going on in the womb?
--- End quote ---
What I meant about does the baby in the womb have knowledge... well did baby John jump because it heard Mary and knew she was carrying baby Jesus? That's what I was getting at, a fetus or even a newborn doesn't 'know' these things. Knowledge comes from experience and a fetus has none, I do not believe it can reason or even really think yet, so what can it know or do? Yes it moves around and responds to things, but I think that is more of a reflex type action.
I'm certainly no expert on these things and researching is difficult, but I do believe a fetus is precious and is a form of life, maybe not completed until birth and breath. I think abortions are a part of the experience of evil we are going through in this world, a great depth of ignorance and selfishness.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
cjwood:
did Jesus lift His voice on high to speak about the evil, social topics of His day? no he did not. why should we? ALL is of God.
i had an abortion when i was 17 yrs old. my parents drove me to san antonio from the small town we lived in south texas. there was no (legal) facility that would do abortions in my town. it was a horrible experience for all of us. it was an excruciating time and decision we had to make. i had overdosed/seizured/lost consciousness on cocaine while not knowing i was in the early weeks of pregnancy. i survived the cocaine ordeal by the mercy of God. (never told my parents about that part. i had graduated from high school, not living at home). i have asked God's forgiveness for putting my parents through such a horrible ordeal, for the death of the newly formed, unborn child, and forgiveness for myself. and every time i see a bumper sticker about abortion i plead for forgiveness again. and reading this thread telling how there will be an accounting and recompense for abortion just rips it all open again.
pointing the finger at all women who have ever had an abortion (especially without knowing why) makes one appear to be their judge. let all men be silenced and only God be the Righteous Judge.
claudia
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