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The Enigma: Jesus Christ our Master and our God
santgem:
--- Quote from: Duane on July 25, 2014, 03:47:33 PM ---lilitalianboy:
Jesus said on the cross: My God, My God! Why hast Thou forsaken Me?
As Ray said: "Jesus has/had a God.
Jesus didn't say: "Myself, Myself! Why have I forsaken Me?
God did nothing of Himself--He did ALL creation THRU His Son, Jesus; that Jesus get ALL the praise and credit for it.
Jesus was to be revered AS God so He did not correct the person you mentioned.
Jesus is EQUAL to God, as you quoted the scripture and that is what God intended.
However, there is ONE GOD and ANOTHER that is mediator between God and man--Jesus!
Now the holy spirit is even MORE complicated because this GIFT represents the SPIRIT of Jesus, passed down at birth, from God. Even GOD needs a spirit to live---this spirit is HOLY--thus the HOLY SPIRIT that indwells the believer.
Ray has an excellent article on this--or I wouldn't have known it (or almost everything else I know!)
--- End quote ---
Hi Duane,
Greetings!
There will always be a confusion among us believers if there are missing point/s in the Scripture. But no, Ray said that you have to pay attention to all the words.
Always and always and always believers are confusing Jesus the man and Jesus the God and Jesus as God and man.
Before Jesus becomes a man, He is the YHWH / I AM / Jehovah /Yahweh in the old testament.
God birthed the YHWH. We don't know how God formed YHWH in the bible but surely this YHWH comes out from God. When YHWH comes out from God this becomes Father and Son. The Father and Son are both God and they are ONE. They are one because Son comes out from the Father.
The YHWH that comes out from God made all things (Not yet Jesus as a man). Without him was not any thing made that was made. YHWH is the spokesman of God and he is the one speaking. This YHWH is the Word of God. The Word is with God in the beginning
YHWH which is the Word came unto his own. the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. This Word was named Jesus when he was born by the virgin. God was manifest in the flesh.
When YHWH which is the Word which is Jesus had a God the moment he was made flesh. Now Jesus become a man. This man Jesus when he was born and died and resurrected and glorified will be still a man, because of him still a man he had a God and Father. This Jesus is God and a man forever.... Can anybody give witnesses that when Jesus is still a YHWH that he called his Father his God. Well, what i see in the Scriptures in OT that he always said that there is no God besides him and he is alone the God. . Again, there are a lot of witnesses that when YHWH becomes Jesus in the flesh and becomes a man that he had a God.
Why is it that so many of us believers don't believe then? I don't know.
Witness!
Psa 2:7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son(the only begotten God) , which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jhn 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col 1:16-17For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
1Ti 3:16"........God was manifest in the flesh........"
Luk 1:31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Isa 41:4Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Exo 3:14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jhn 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Psalm 22. I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Rev 1:6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Luke 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Act 2:31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
As for those people believe that Jesus is a created being, they are using this 2 verses;
Rev 3:14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Col 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Once again, i will borrow Ray's word............"Pay attention to the words".
Kat:
Hi santgem, here we go again...
--- Quote ---When YHWH which is the Word which is Jesus had a God the moment he was made flesh.
v
Can anybody give witnesses that when Jesus is still a YHWH that he called his Father his God. Well, what i see in the Scriptures in OT that he always said that there is no God besides him and he is alone the God.
--- End quote ---
That first comment I have there, so you just come to that conclusion because there is no Scripture that shows the Son worshipped the Father in the OT, right?
Well as far as I can tell the Father is never mentioned out right in the OT at all. So no the Son never called His Father His God in the OT. But we do know He is there, because there is the reference to Us and We in Genesis.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us,
Gen 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Christ only revealed the Father to us when He came in the flesh and then He spoke of Him a great deal. I really cannot understand your point that the Father only became the Son's God when He became flesh... The Father brought Him forth, gave the Son LIFE, therefore the Father is greater (John 14:28).
I believe the crux of what you are getting at is the OT Scripture (and there are many, I will only put these) that says there is one God.
Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him.
Deu 32:39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me.
In Isaiah God explains for Himself why He repeats this so many times.
Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
v. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no Savior.
v. 12 I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses," Says the LORD, "that I am God.
Well that's plenty of proof that there are not 2 Gods. There also the same thing spoken in the NT.
There are so many Scripture that speak of their idols of wood and gold and silver and many more Scriptures that speak against idolatry, as it is so prevalent in the OT. That's why He says over and over that He is the only God and the Father and Son are still but one God from the moment He came forth and will never be separate.
Another thing to note in verse 10 that He expresses that He, the Son, is the only "God formed." He is that part of God with a form/image of a man, as many Scripture say. But they are not separate, not even when He came in the flesh and there are NT Scripture that show this same thing, one God.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
So santgem, that's the way I see this, take it or leave it... this explanation is more for others that may be interested anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
santgem:
Hello Kat,
Greetings!
I am assuming that you are not paying attention to the words I presented and you do not want to hear or do care of what I had said.
Hi santgem, here we go again...
--- Quote ---When YHWH which is the Word which is Jesus had a God the moment he was made flesh.
v
Can anybody give witnesses that when Jesus is still a YHWH that he called his Father his God. Well, what i see in the Scriptures in OT that he always said that there is no God besides him and he is alone the God.
--- End quote ---
That first comment I have there, so you just come to that conclusion because there is no Scripture that shows the Son worshipped the Father in the OT, right?
Yes, there’s none in the Scripture.
Well as far as I can tell the Father is never mentioned out right in the OT at all. So no the Son never called His Father His God in the OT. But we do know He is there, because there is the reference to Us and We in Genesis.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us,
Gen 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
Kat, you are not paying attention to what I said, I said that there is a Son who created all things when he comes out with the Father. This son is the YHWH and this also is the Word.
Christ only revealed the Father to us when He came in the flesh and then He spoke of Him a great deal. I really cannot understand your point that the Father only became the Son's God when He became flesh... The Father brought Him forth, gave the Son LIFE, therefore the Father is greater (John 14:28).
Wrong, you did not catch what I said. I said that the Son comes out from the Father when still there is nothing except between them. There are still no created things when Son comes out from the Father, and the Son is the YHWH who created everything. You miss the point.
Again, I said that when YHWH the Son became man, Jesus started to call his Father my God. Jesus now has a God.
Naturally when YHWH/I AM/Jesus became human his Father is greater than him.
Can you show me in the Scripture that when Jesus is the YHWH/I AM in the OT that the Father is greater than him?
I believe the crux of what you are getting at is the OT Scripture (and there are many, I will only put these) that says there is one God.
Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him.
Deu 32:39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me.
In Isaiah God explains for Himself why He repeats this so many times.
Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
v. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no Savior.
v. 12 I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses," Says the LORD, "that I am God.
Well that's plenty of proof that there are not 2 Gods. There also the same thing spoken in the NT.
I am with you Kat when you said that there are not 2 Gods. I don’t believe either that there are 2 Gods.
There are so many Scripture that speak of their idols of wood and gold and silver and many more Scriptures that speak against idolatry, as it is so prevalent in the OT. That's why He says over and over that He is the only God and the Father and Son are still but one God from the moment He came forth and will never be separate.
I believe that, but only our differences is that for you Jesus is created being but for me He is not.
Another thing to note in verse 10 that He expresses that He, the Son, is the only "God formed.
Yes He is formed, that is why He created man into their image. He is formed but without flesh. He is to become a man to become Jesus.
" He is that part of God with a form/image of a man, as many Scripture say. But they are not separate, not even when He came in the flesh and there are NT Scripture that show this same thing, one God.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
So santgem, that's the way I see this, take it or leave it... this explanation is more for others that may be interested anyway.
I would suggest that you examine carefully of what I had said and please study the points I had presented. If there are wrong in what I said I’ll be more than happy to be corrected. I have to know more about Jesus.
Also, if there is a truth, i beg you to open your eyes and don't hardened your heart.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
[/quote]
Kat:
Hi santgem,
--- Quote ---Can you show me in the Scripture that when Jesus is the YHWH/I AM in the OT that the Father is greater than him?
--- End quote ---
What I'm trying to get across is that the Father was not revealed in the OT, we do not hear that there was a prior Father and Son relationship before Jesus spoke of Him. You do not read anything about this in the OT, it comes from Jesus in the NT, so what you are saying about this was not because you found it in the OT, you know it because it is now apart of the NT writings. The people in the OT times did not know about the Father and Son and so no I can't show you a Scripture in the OT, there is no Scripture where the OT God speaks of His Father at all, He is never mentioned there, if you want to prove your point that way. It still does not dismiss all Christ said about the Father and that everything He said is not only meant to be in the present or the future tense.
All we know about the Father comes from Jesus Christ in the NT, that's where we first learn about the Father from the Son, Christ Jesus. So you must think it's only when the Son becomes lower than the angels is what made the Father greater than Him. No I certainly don't believe that. I am saying the One who brought the Son forth is greater, because the One that brought forth the Other would have to be greater to do that.
Now if you don't want to say the Son is a creation of God, well then formed is fine with me, but it's the Scripture where that term comes from or most of the translations have it that way. So whatever.
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
mercy, peace and love
Kat
santgem:
Greetings Kat,
--- Quote ---So you must think it's only when the Son becomes lower than the angels is what made the Father greater than Him. No I certainly don't believe that. I am saying the One who brought the Son forth is greater, because the One that brought forth the Other would have to be greater to do that.
Now if you don't want to say the Son is a creation of God, well then formed is fine with me, but it's the Scripture where that term comes from or most of the translations have it that way. So whatever.
--- End quote ---
Whether YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh is brought forth or formed there is no evidence that Father is greater than the Son. The Scriptures tells us that this formed God is the only God(Isa 44:6) the only Savior(Isa 43:11) the Almighty God (Exo. 6:3).
If you say that the one that brought forth the Other would have to be greater, saying without evidence is like an hearsay. But, I'm eager to know the truth and the evidence, maybe i am not paying attention to all the words or i miss something.
Let me show you the verse that This YHWH is sharing the Glory with his Father. In their glory that they shared, you cannot distinguish who had the greater or lesser glory. They have their glory.
Jhn 17:5 'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;(YLT)
Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began. NLT
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Beginning = archē; feminine noun
1. beginning, origin
2. the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3. that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4. the extremity of a thing
1. of the corners of a sail
5. the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
1. of angels and demons
"beginning" does not refer to Jesus' creation. The Greek word arche means "first in position" or "leader". Alternate meanings include "origin" or "cause." The said verse, Jesus is presenting His authority over creation as Creator.
Other verses from the Bible confirm that Jesus is the beginning of creation, since He created everything:
• All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being
that has come into being. (John 1:3)
• For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and
invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been
created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:16)
Other obvious verses from the Bible do speak of Jesus' lack of origin:
• For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on
His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal
Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
• In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He
was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2)
• Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)
Another verse to consider; Jesus is the eternal God who took on the form of a man
...Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with
God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and
being made in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G756
Citing in TDNT: 1:479, 81
1. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is
above every name, (Philippians 2:9)
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and
on earth and under the earth, (Philippians 2:10)
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the
Father. (Philippians 2:11)
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