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General Questions
Kat:
Ian, I have heard this line of thinking before, that the resurrection is now for the elect, that there is no coming resurrection at the end of the age. That's not the way Ray taught that and I believe this is a false teaching that does lead people astray. Yes the elect are baptized into His death, yes coming up out of the 'spiritual' baptism waters is a resurrection of sorts, but the elect will still physically die and go to the grave to await the final gathering of elect at the 'first resurrection.' The baptism resurrection is only a shadow of the resurrection to Life, being born into the kingdom at the end of this age, when Christ Jesus returns and calls all the elect out of their graves.
In John 11 yes Lazarus was resurrected, that was purely a physical resurrection for a short duration (the rest of his physical life), Jesus had not yet died and there had been no sacrifice for our sin yet at that time. Jesus said in verse 15 it was done for a witness of who He was, so that they would believe.
Here is an excerpt from the article #E. Hell: 'Hades and the Second Death.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm --------------------------
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.
Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).
There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."
The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).
But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."
"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).
The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.
This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.
Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on November 05, 2014, 12:38:36 PM ---Kat it is a battle for me to explain.... - not sure if its out of fear of sounding Whacked, or if its going to turn what people think they know, on its head... I have been doing a lot of reading,asking,studies on this subject of resurrection that is "supposed" reserved for "some time" we call "end times",when I'm done, I will put something together and post it as a discussion
reading John 11:1- end & 1Cor 15- end,see what you think, there are many other scriptures but it all started with that one and then a few discussions of late, centered around this topic also got me delving.
I do not think this is as complicated as most find it to be. Crucifiction is separate from Burial which is separate from resurrection.
You quote Rom 6 v 5 - "Likeness" appears twice,underline them and selah
--- End quote ---
Ian, If I understand correctly, you are insinuating that the spiritual Resurrection happens to us now?
What happens to us now is the death of the old man. What happens after death? Spiritual Resurrection? No. Judgement.
1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:"
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
We are to consider ourselves dead that we may partake in judgement now.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
That we may be alive in the spirit that resides in us. The spirit of Christ. That we may be converted.
This is a daily activity though. We don't just die once, we die daily. It is a process!
1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
This is the process of regeneration.
Lastly, when we are spiritually raised (Born again [NOT conceived] into the kingdom of God) we become invisible and powerful like the wind. I quoted this piece of scripture above. Here it is again:
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Everything about 1 Corinthians talks about the RESSURECTION OF THE DEAD. A FUTURE event that HAS NOT yet happened.
1 Corinthians 15:42-49 So also is THE [not 'A' ressurection but 'THE', THE ONE AND ONLY] resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Here is what paul said about this idea that I think you are trying to hint at:
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
IF I am correct about what you have been insinuating, then this is a warning. Do not overthrow the faith of those yet weak in these matters.
God be with you,
Alex
P.S. If I am completely off on what you were trying to hint at then please ignore everything I Just said as it would not apply one bit to your thoughts.
rick:
Hello Alex,
Alex, your last reply which was post 71concerning me cleared some things up that I didn’t realize or had thought about before.
I always thought as long as I commit just one sin, I cannot be converted. For me , you did a great job explaining and filling in the missing pieces of information or understanding I was lacking.
The things you explained ,I see so clearly now and not only that which you mentioned but also what Kat and J from K said as well.
I actually understand in greater depths my walk with Christ,.
Many thanks to you Alex and all who have responded to this thread :)
Ian 155:
One cannot start in the spiritual and suddenly revert back to the natural (thats like hot and cold mixed) ... Ill put some scripture together and send it to Kat or the mods for consideration as to whether we discuss or not - Phil 3v10,11,12-
lilitalienboi16:
.
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on November 06, 2014, 12:09:32 AM ---One cannot start in the spiritual and suddenly revert back to the natural (thats like hot and cold mixed) ... Ill put some scripture together and send it to Kat or the mods for consideration as to whether we discuss or not -
--- End quote ---
Hello Ian,
We are not reverting back to the natural simply because we havnt overcome, been saved, endured to the end, beeen raised from the dead...Discussions are fine but certain ideas border on heresy and blasphemy. Paul warned that this concept of the resurrection of the dead already having happened was overthrowing the faith of believers.
Here is Philippians
"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."
Paul is saying that as far as the ressurection of the dead is concerned, he has not already attained. The same thing he said in timothy of it not being already passed. The same thing ray pointed out with "RECKON" yourselves dead, I.e. "consider" yourselves dead to the flesh so you may be alive in the spirit. Those born of the spirit, born again, are powerful and invisible like the wind. We have a promise of this redemption to come in our conception from God through the holy spirit in us but we have not "already attained" it. Only those that overcome shall be saved, those that endure to the end.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endureunto the end, the same shall be saved.
Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be [FUTURE, NOT as though weve already attained] also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Phil 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
The work in us has began, it iisn't finished yet. We have not yet attained.
In Christ,
Alex
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