> General Discussions
144.000 ?
Kat:
Hi Mike,
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
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When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).
In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.
The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.
• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000 is 12 times 12 a thousand times, 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.
Deu 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
1Ch 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
Psalms 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Mike Gagne:
Thank you all for your replies, Kat what you posted was very helpful , 144.000 sounds like a real number and I am okay with it. Anyhow I dont think they will be counting each other and I also don't think that the number will be more or less! I am greatful for this site and all the post that everyone shares! 😀
Joel:
The way I see it God is the Supreme architect, and he also is the ultimate perfectionist in all things.
God has used many numbers throughout the entire Bible.
Some are to be taken literal and others are symbolic.
Sometimes there is an explanation as to what the numbers represent, The 144,00 in Revelations 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Is the 144,000 a literal number? Is the seven thousand God refers to in his conversation with Elijah in 1st Kings a literal number? 1st Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
Joel
Ian 155:
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
These are the elect (sealed) who do not have any part, (fornicate) with The Great Whore (the church system/world system) "carnal Beings" the walking dead ....
"Those who come out of Her" ... Those led by the Spirit not the flesh -
12000 sealed x 12 tribes
Kat:
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html -----------------------
LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?
In many cases it is not difficult to determine whether a verse is literal or not. But, since we use figures of speech so often we tend to forget that much of what we say daily is not literally true. Many of us would hardly be able to carry on a conversation if we had to drop out of our vocabulary every word and every phrase we speak that is NOT LITERALLY TRUE. The English language, as well as all other languages, is just filled with symbolic and metaphorical phrases.
The first eleven verses of Chapter one in Revelation are an introduction regarding where, how, and what John is going to record for us. Much of this introduction can be taken literally, however, not all. Beginning with verse twelve, we are confronted with one symbol after another for the remainder of the entire twenty-two-chapter-book.
Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true.
The fact is there are many many truths in the Bible
that are not literally true.
Jesus "said" that the bread He gave His disciples at the Lord’s supper was His body. Yet, Jesus Himself explains in other places that this was not literally true. He gave them literal bread, and not His literal physical flesh. What that bread represented, and symbolized, was indeed, His body--but not his physical body.
Jesus said that the words that he spoke were SPIRIT (John 6:63). Jesus Christ changes not. His words are STILL spirit and they certainly were spirit when John wrote the words of Christ regarding His unveiling or revelation. Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Understand this! Some think that by accepting the Scriptures as they are given (in the case of Revelation that means AS SYMBOLS), that somehow this "spiritualizes away" the teaching. What? It is the "spiritual" aspect of these symbols that IS THE REAL THING; THE REAL UNDERSTANDING! Physical things "pass away" whereas spiritual things are eternal! The very FACT that this book is written in "symbols" is proof positive that the understanding of them is SPIRITUAL and not physical or literal.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS!
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2607.0.html ------
Dear Matt:
The book of Revelation is a book "signified" with SYMBOLS. And the words of Jesus are "SPIRIT" (I John 6:63). And it is filled with signs and metaphors. None of these things are literal.
The Seven Churches are not literally seven. The 24 elders are not literally 24. The 144,000 are not literally 144,000. The 1000 years is not literally a thousand years. These are ALL symbols. The Lake of Fire is neither a literal lake or literal fire.
And your statement: "the 'saved in this lifetime, i.e. called and chosen but not elect' are those who merely populate the millennial kingdom" is bogus. There is no such thing as "called AND chosen, but NOT elect." The called and chosen ARE THE ELECT. I wish that I could tell you that you are among the chosen elect, but that is something that I do not know. God knows those who are His, but no one else does. Therefore, it behooves us all to do diligence in our walk of faith.
God be with you,
Ray
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