> General Discussions
144.000 ?
Rene:
--- Quote from: Kat on October 28, 2014, 08:30:09 AM ---
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2607.0.html ------
Dear Matt:
The book of Revelation is a book "signified" with SYMBOLS. And the words of Jesus are "SPIRIT" (I John 6:63). And it is filled with signs and metaphors. None of these things are literal.
The Seven Churches are not literally seven. The 24 elders are not literally 24. The 144,000 are not literally 144,000. The 1000 years is not literally a thousand years. These are ALL symbols. The Lake of Fire is neither a literal lake or literal fire.
Ray
--- End quote ---
Jehovah's Witnesses believed that the 144,000 was a literal number and kept a running count of those who qualified. :o When I was drawn to BT, it didn't take long for me to let go of those old beliefs.
René
Mike Gagne:
Good stuff everyone and thank you! So it's safe to say that it could be a literal number and it is also safe to say that it could be a symbolic number? Romans 11:25 refers to when the full number of the Gentiles comes to Christ , is this a reference to the elect?, and if so would it suggest that there is a specific number to come in? Why I believe this number is 144.000 is because of this scripture....And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book. (Revelation 22:18-19 NLT)... This number really never meant anything to me before my coming out of Babyalon, but me and a brother think this is a literal number and I came here because to see if it was symbolic someone here might have a explanation of what it symbolizes...thank you all... P.S Rene I am not a Jehovah's witness, when they used to come to my door before I was called I think I scared them! 👹 lol,Anyhow I am glad even those who aren't the elect will end up in Gods Kingdom!! 😊
Kat:
Mike, there is a lot of symbolism in that number, so yes it is a symbolic number and as Ray had explained, symbols are never literal or that is not the literal number of elect in the first resurrection.
Now the Scripture you referred to in Rom. 11 may very well be referring to the elect... God most certainly knows the exact number of elect there will be, "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'" (Isa 46:10). My own opinion is that I don't see how it could be that very number.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Mike Gagne:
Hi Kat
--- Quote from: Kat on October 25, 2014, 10:39:56 AM ---
Hi Mike,
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).
In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.
The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.
• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000 is 12 times 12 a thousand times, 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.
Deu 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
1Ch 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
Psalms 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
in this quote LRay says the the 144.000 will have honours and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ , I was thinking he was quoting this number as literal and then in your second last post LRay says this number is not a literal number, I am so confused!! Lol I have stated it as a literal number, I see that there are opinions on this number even in this thread and I think they are all good opinions! I guess I was looking for either a explanation on the meaning of the symbol or the meaning of literal number. I guess if the book is a book that's is signified then I will have to believe it is a symbolic number.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Mike Gagne on October 28, 2014, 09:15:35 PM ---Hi Kat
--- Quote from: Kat on October 25, 2014, 10:39:56 AM ---
Hi Mike,
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).
In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.
The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.
• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000 is 12 times 12 a thousand times, 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.
Deu 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
1Ch 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
Psalms 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
in this quote LRay says the the 144.000 will have honours and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ , I was thinking he was quoting this number as literal and then in your second last post LRay says this number is not a literal number, I am so confused!! Lol I have stated it as a literal number, I see that there are opinions on this number even in this thread and I think they are all good opinions! I guess I was looking for either a explanation on the meaning of the symbol or the meaning of literal number. I guess if the book is a book that's is signified then I will have to believe it is a symbolic number.
--- End quote ---
Dear Mike,
I don't believe ray ever used that number as if its literal. The 144,000 is symbolic for the elect. When ray uses that number, hes seeing beyond just the literal value--the mathematical number. This is how we compare spiritual with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God [Receives not the WORD, receives not the UNDERSTANDING of the 144,000]: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The scriptures are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
You have to see beyond the literal if you are to get to the meat of the word.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
We have already shown you that Christ's words are spirit and that revelation is the revelation of CHRIST that was SIGNIFIED (To use symbols) to john. Now you also know that to discern the word of God you have to compare spiritual. This is a perfect match for:
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
I wonder what this means... "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth" (Revelation 11:3)
Hmm.... is that a literal two people who will prophesy for a literal 1260 days?
God bless,
Alex
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version