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Resurrection of the dead in Matthew 27?
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on December 27, 2014, 01:51:45 PM ---
King David's last words were to kill his enemies and make it bloody. King David died an unrepentant murderer and murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
I was under the impression That spiritually,in this quote, David is "in the place of God" (The Father) and Solomon (in the place) of Jesus the Son,and David's instructions to Solomon are as the fathers to Jesus regarding his enemies " For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet".
Stupid me,
--- End quote ---
Hi Ian,
Here are a few things ray said on this very subject.
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
Why is all this Old Testament in here, hundreds and hundreds of pages… why is it in there? Why was it preserved? Why was it so meticulously copied, letter for letter thousand and thousand... we have about five to ten thousand copies of the Greek scriptures. Some of them are recent, 1800-1900’s. Some of them go back to the 4th and 5th century, really old. Why... “For our admonition upon who the ends of the age have come…”
That’s what the scripture says. Those people won’t even be saved (in OT). It was not for their admonition, it’s for OUR admonition. They all died deceived. I mean people almost fall out of their chairs when I tell them that King David will not be in the Kingdom of God! He was never converted, he was never born again, he was never begotten anew, he was never spiritually regenerated. His very dying words were, “Make it bloody, kill my enemies!” He told Solomon, “You’re a wise man, you’ll know how to do it, but make it bloody, I hate those guys…” Those were his dying words. Do people like that go into the Kingdom of God? “But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES!” It was written for our admonition.
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html
We can love our neighbor, with an agape love, we don’t need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies... If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.
But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area. God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies. First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies. Well, where did they hear that of old? About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody. That was King David, not God. But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said. Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.
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Dave from Tenn also makes a good point and I would just add to all these things that taking a shadow and turning into the object that is casting a shadow is dangerous in my humble opinion. If david and solomon was symbolic for the Father and Christ (which personally I cannot say one way or another as I have not looked into this), they in know way become the Father and Christ. David will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He died an unrepentant murderer who hated His enemies. What did Christ say about those things? They shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Ray also pointed out that as Christ said, you have to be born again, this cannot happen without the spirit of Christ, the holy spirit, which the world had not yet received during the time of David nor would receive until after pentecost.
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
In Christ,
Alex
Gina:
You're welcome, Dave.
All I know is, the elect are very, very strong emotionally, mentally and spiritually in order to be able to withstand the carnal-minded backlash they are going to receive. They cannot revile when they are reviled, and they cannot threaten when they are threatened. As weak as I am to the pulls of the flesh when someone just looks at me cross-eyed, when I think of the enormity of the elects' task, I have a whole new layer of respect for Jesus and all of God's elect. The amount of patience and wisdom and emotional stability and strength it would take to raise just one child who hates your guts, to a place where they could function semi-well, exhausts me just thinking about it. But to raise billions and billions to full perfection and understanding and perfect, self-less love without growing weary of doing good or fainting in all that "heat" blows my mind.
That's too high for me... I need to go lay down now.
Ian 155:
look Alex I hear you but, need to stress you cannot be lukewarm here, If you understand that David is a murderer (in the shadow/literally) thats OK, What is the spiritual meaning of Davids instructions?since I cannot write my understanding as I always seem to appear as teaching, perhaps you can answer...while you are thinking on that,
Is Jesus the spiritual "son of David"? we do know he is literally the 26th grandson of David
regarding resurrection what do I do with these scriptures ?
Job 19:25 Yet as for me, I know my Redeemer is living, And after this He shall arise on the soil;"
Job 19:26 And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,
Act 9:8 Now Saul was raised from the earth, yet, his eyes being open, he observed nothing. Now, leading him by the hand, they led him into Damascus,
Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused."
1Co 15:14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith."
Mat 16:27 Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."
And
This below scripture should cancel out of our mind the carnality and foolishness of an idea that to quote ...re the patriarchs “Jesus had not died yet“
Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."
Dave your statement that Jesus wont be the last is not true... let me quote you "Jesus was first. He won't be the last. If He was not raised from the dead, neither will I be" this part is scripture
Im not being difficult now but ... Jesus is the first, however he is ALSO .... the Last , there are more than 2 witnesses to back this up.
Finally is the bible a literal "book" to you or is it life giving spirit ? is each word inspired by God? if so, then to interpret/perceive these precious words literally, is death.
Lean not unto your own understanding, is a command
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on December 27, 2014, 03:58:26 PM ---look Alex I hear you but, need to stress you cannot be lukewarm here, If you understand that David is a murderer (in the shadow/literally) thats OK, What is the spiritual meaning of Davids instructions?since I cannot write my understanding as I always seem to appear as teaching, perhaps you can answer...while you are thinking on that,
Is Jesus the spiritual "son of David"? we do know he is literally the 26th grandson of David
regarding resurrection what do I do with these scriptures ?
Job 19:25 Yet as for me, I know my Redeemer is living, And after this He shall arise on the soil;"
Job 19:26 And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,
Act 9:8 Now Saul was raised from the earth, yet, his eyes being open, he observed nothing. Now, leading him by the hand, they led him into Damascus,
Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused."
1Co 15:14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith."
Mat 16:27 Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."
And
This below scripture should cancel out of our mind the carnality and foolishness of an idea that to quote ...re the patriarchs “Jesus had not died yet“
Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."
Dave your statement that Jesus wont be the last is not true... let me quote you "Jesus was first. He won't be the last. If He was not raised from the dead, neither will I be" this part is scripture
Im not being difficult now but ... Jesus is the first, however he is ALSO .... the Last , there are more than 2 witnesses to back this up.
Finally is the bible a literal "book" to you or is it life giving spirit ? is each word inspired by God? if so, then to interpret/perceive these precious words literally, is death.
Lean not unto your own understanding, is a command
--- End quote ---
Hi Ian,
I don't know if I can say David's "instructions" had "spiritual" meaning. By instructions, are you referring to what he said regarding his enemies? "Kill them and make it bloody?"
David was a carnal man and died an unrepentant murderer as we already showed.
This is what I know about spirit and flesh.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity [Deep seated hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
David was never begotten a new but rather was of the earth as a natural man. He was not born of spirit so how could his words be spirit (Christ said His words are spirit but Christ was conceived by the spirit)? King David did not walk in the spirit being baptized into Christ's death and reckoning himself dead to the flesh but alive to the spirit as we who have been converted and conceived by the spirit do now. This is how I understand it. I cannot see right now how David's words of murder and hatred are "spiritual" as you (from what I'm perceiving) do.
You shared many verses below to which the meaning and purpose behind is not quite clear to me.
I know regarding Matthew 16:27 what Ray has shared on the matter and I agree with him on it. Here is what ray says regarding that verse:
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0.html
As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28). And just when DID they see this? Answer--next verse:
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?" No. Read verse 9:
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
It was all a "VISION." It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).
Hope this helps your understanding. The Scriptures do not contradict their own truths.
God be with you,
Ray
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Here is the sum of the word regarding the matter of Rev 13:8 (remember that no verse at all becomes its OWN interpretation):
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
This is how God could say that Jesus had been slain from the foundation of the world, because He calls those things that are not as though they were. It is the very same reason that we are NOW sons of God even though we have not yet been born into the kingdom of God, only given the earnest of His spirit as a downpayment of the future redemption to come when we will be born into the kingdom.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Now because God calls those things that are not as though they were.
Your cryptic nature of posting leads me to be cautious of what you say because it is not plain what your intentions are. I see a lot of people becoming confused by your post and it is perhaps why the moderators removed the previous post if indeed it was your post that david was referring to as being one that was "teaching." I unfortunately did not see this post before it was removed but I trust God that it was removed for the right reasons.
In Christ,
Alex
Kat:
Ian, I will give you an answer as I see it.
As far as Job goes he knew he would be dead in the grave and "wait," till he was raised/changed to a new body.
Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.
Acts 9:8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. (NASB)
Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
With this verse in Revelation, yes of course Christ has the keys to death and the grave, He was able to raise people during His earthly ministry as He so desired and return them to a physical life and He will call all from their grave in the resurrection of the dead.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
In 1 Cor. 15 Paul was speaking to those that did not believe in the resurrection at all and if you will look a little further down in that same chapter you can see where Paul was going with that... the resurrection at His return!
1Co 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
Matt 16:28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
In this verse in Matt 16 Christ is speaking to His disciples, and Judas would have been there as well, the phrase "shall not taste of death" could very well have been speaking of the second death and could have applied to Judas, he was the only disciple that died before Christ was crucified and raised and was not able to receive the Holy Spirit and repent.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This certainly applies to the fact that God's plan was established before the world was created.
1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. (RSV)
Also the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Anyway that is the answer I see to all the verses you have listed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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