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"of" or "in"?
Kat:
--- Quote from: Gina on January 04, 2015, 12:28:29 AM ---p.s. In case the writer of the song was referring to the time when Jesus quoted the Psalm: "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" while on the cross, that was not a public display of doubt by Jesus. There was a time when I thought that God actually did forsake Jesus, but I don't believe that anymore. Jesus quoted a Psalm, for whatever reason, I don't know exactly why at this point in my walk but I'm confident it will make perfect sense one day. And some have tried to explain those words away but not to my satisfaction because when they do, they unintentionally make Jesus out to be doubting -- which means he lacked belief. So I don't pay any attention to their explanations. And besides, right after He said, why have you forsaken me, He said, "Into thy hands I commit my spirit." And that is proof that Jesus didn't give into the temptation to doubt. It's really tempting to believe he had a moment of unbelief, I grant you that! But I would caution you against that. It serves no good purpose. :)
--- End quote ---
Hi Gina, this is a interesting Scripture that has been misunderstood, because the church believed that Jesus was 'made sin' and therefore the Father could not look (turned His back) on Him as such - sin.
Habakkuk 1:13 You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness.
But Ray explained very well how Christ became a "sin offering" and certainly not sin in a 2 part Bible study. Links for anybody interested.
audio
http://bible-truths.com/audio/WS_10001.WMA
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.wma
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ChristSinII.mp3
transcript
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html
I do NOT believe Christ was expressing His doubt in any way, as you were saying, but rather His desire for all this horrible suffering to be brought to an end, which it was very quickly thereafter.
Another thing is just before Christ spoke those words "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" the Jews that were gathered there to watch/gloat at His crucifixion, had said...
Mat 27:41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said,
v. 42 "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him.
Christ knew these Jews knew what David had spoken in the Psalms and they also believed that passage to be speaking of the Messiah. So by His quoting that very Scripture in their hearing most clearly shows them right where it is recorded about HIM! That passage revealed He was that Messiah, and He was pointing that out them. He knew these were prophesied of Him, and fit with what was happening to Him at that very moment perfectly. It says that they "divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots (verse 18), the soldiers had just done that.
Should have left no doubt to them that passage was about Him, but it was just another record for US and another proof of who He was.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
dave:
Thanks Kat :)
Gina:
Thank you for the links and the explanation, Kat. I listened to it a long time ago and I was very grateful for that study Ray did. I would encourage anyone to listen to it. Yes, I agree that Christ was a sin-offering. That makes perfect sense. (And for the record, in case there was any doubt, I was never among those who were misled to believe that Christ was "made sin," by a certain person whose name I won't mention so as not to give him any "air" time or continual free-advertising.)
As for what Jesus said “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?”, I don't at this time fully understand why he even said that using those words, and not words that those standing near him heard properly, because some thought they heard him say something He did not say and they went around saying -- "Why is that man calling out for Elijah?"
God did not forsake Him, obviously. There were a few other verses in that Psalm that Jesus could have just as easily quoted to prove that he was who David was speaking of that would have left no confusion in those standing near. Why did he pick that particular verse? I'm willing to wait for God to open my eyes to it, but I believe it might have something to do with the timing that he spoke those words (at about the ninth hour).
What does the time he said those words have to do with the price of tea in China? Quite a lot I'm sure. But as far as I know, Ray never touched on or spoke about that aspect of it, and so obviously that's going to remain an area of my own personal study and I won't bring it to the forum again, as it's going to lead to debate, I have no doubt.
Thanks again for your helpful reply and for the links.
God bless you, Kat.
Kat:
Hi Gina, no debate... just looking at these Scripture, I think it can be very helpful to discuss these things.
--- Quote ---"Why is that man calling out for Elijah?"
--- End quote ---
Thinking about the resemblance between the word ‘Eli’ and the name Elijah, Jesus was certainly weak and may not been able to speak loudly to be well heard. Another thing is the Jews believed that Elijah would come first as a forerunner to the Messiah.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
The possible misunderstanding about what this verse meant could have been the Jews sarcastic way of saying that was what Christ was doing to prove His Messiahship. OR an intentional mistake by the Jews, who knew very well what he said, but were set on deriding Him to the end and to misrepresent who He really was.
Just more thoughts.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
Well unfortunately at this point, we can only speculate.
And I unintentionally misquoted the text. Dang it - I hate it when I do that crap.
They didn't ask why He was calling out for Elijah, as I said before. The text says, some began saying that He was calling out for Elijah:
47 And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, “This man is calling for Elijah.”
48 Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
49 But the rest of them said, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him.”
All we know for certain is: We don't know who said it. Which kinda sucks, ya know?
I suppose it could have been Romans or Greeks who weren't familiar with the language he was using, which could explain why they thought he said something he didn't. Don't know.
If Jesus was so short of breath that he couldn't speak loud enough to be heard audibly, then who actually did hear Him speak what He spoke? Someone heard Him correctly. So the notion that He couldn't be heard goes right out the window.
If it was the Jews that were saying that and they understood what He said but began spreading lies, then obviously they were false witnesses and play actors. Which means that they actually did know who Jesus was but. as per usual, they were pretending / acting as if they didn't know.
But then we would have to tackle this text: "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
I love discussing these things but I am human and I get so impatient and before I know it, I say something I shouldn't or start inadvertently teaching. And then as if that weren't bad enough, I forget that God gave me all the answers and truths I will ever need at this time, and then I become doubtful and p'd off, and I hate it when I do that crap too. Ray said to me once in a private email exchange: "Eve had everything she needed but a snake convinced her it wasn't enough." It's like God can never, ever do enough. It's never enough. I don't want to go there. I sense God saying, Don't go there, Gina. :)
I know the answer is there and makes perfect sense. All in good time.
I believe a good look into what it was about the ninth hour and the timing of those spoken words is in order here, because obviously Someone thought the hour He spoke those very words was important enough to bring to our attention.
God bless you, Kat. You're a patient, intelligent, generous and kindhearted woman and I appreciate your willingness to hear me out.
Gina
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