> General Discussions
"of" or "in"?
Gina:
One more thought. I don't see where Jesus said "If there's some other way." He said:
Luke
42 ... "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
43 Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him
Matthew 26
39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."
I could be totally wrong but it sounds to me like what Jesus was praying for to let the cup of fear and physical pain pass from him. Unfortunately, it couldn't pass because He had to suffer the penalty of our sins.
He had to FEEL everything, the fear and the agonizing and all the jeering and the cruelty that we had coming to us. He had to feel it all. You think maybe he was asking that he simply be kept safe from feeling it in his mind and his body? I mean, it's so pitiful to think about. I'd be praying the same thing - we all would.
And of course it was possible for God to let that pass from him so that he could go through it without actually experiencing the pain of it. Nothing's too hard for God, He even said so.
But that would have diminished the effects of it in the eyes of mankind. We would have all been like, Wow, that must have been really hard for him to do -- zzzzzzz.
But if he did that, then he couldn't really say that He actually suffered the penalty for our sins, so we have a Truthful Savior to the core. He could have gone through all that and pretended like it hurt like hell, but then he'd be a liar, and Jesus was no liar. (I mean, that's how truthful he was -- like Alex said -- he said many things for the benefit of those he is saving.) Love is long-suffering.
And the whole thing about Him suffering the penalty for our sin is the actual suffering and mental and emotional anguish and wishing he didn't have to experience the pain of it - just like we would be wishing. He had to feel everything we would be feeling -- including the desire to let the suffering not effect him physically or psychologically, or emotionally. Does that make sense? Or did I just confuse you more? I hope not.
Kat:
I will say this statement from Christ, "let this cup pass from Me" is a bit perplexing, though we really don't know exactly what He meant by it, we know He always knew He was to suffer and be our sacrifice.
Luke 9:22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."
But I guess knowing about something that is to come and then actually having to go through with it... well He certainly knew what He was about to have to endure. Crucifixion was well established by that time...
The first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon. (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)
Jesus most likely had seen people crucified as this was done as a public show, but even if He had not actually witnessed a crucifixion, well He was our God from heaven and would have certainly known everything about this barbaric means of death.
Crucifixion was often performed to terrorize and dissuade its witnesses from perpetrating particularly heinous crimes. Victims were left on display after death as warnings to others who might attempt dissent. Crucifixion was usually intended to provide a death that was particularly slow, painful (hence the term excruciating, literally "out of crucifying"), gruesome, humiliating, and public (Wikipedia, Crucifixion)
When we think of who Jesus was, leading a totally righteous life and certainly taking perfect care of His body as well and there is no account of anybody ever laying hands on Him or abusing Him before His arrest. He just would not have been used to being taken hold of, much less horribly abused.
He was God... though He came as a servant, He was very much above/pure/holy/superior to all these people and yet He was now about to surrender into the hands of some of the most vile and wicked people that He knew were going to torture Him mercilessly.
I really think He was having a kind of panic attack, had become unnerved, which should absolutely show He was a fully physically man (there are some that believe He could not be God and fully man too). But He turned to the only source He could, His Father, who sent Him an angel to give Him the strength needed. He never relented, even when He was struggling in the garden, that He would do the Father's will, as we see in His prayer and most importantly is He DID it!
When you think about it, Jesus is was and always will be God. Before His life in the flesh He had already been living for billions of years, at least, what He willingly volunteered to do is so mindbogglingly incredible...
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
v. 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lurquer:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on January 06, 2015, 10:08:34 PM ---
Hi Lurquer,
Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts...
In Christ,
Alex
--- End quote ---
I hear you, Alex. He was meant to die, and he knew it all along...But what then was Christ agonizing about in the Garden?
Aye, there's the rub.
I'm not so sure Jesus was "fearful" of the pain/suffering of the death he was to "glorify God with" (qua John 21:19). Many mere humans (before and since) have went to their death fearlessly. And they knew precisely what sort of death they were in for because they'd dealt it themselves. But the Lord is above all of them. Were they all "stronger' than him?
Gina and Kat, I love what you both said, but I don't believe he was fearing his physical "death". Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man...
Gina:
Okay. I'm sure that God will reveal it to us in His own time.
Luke 12:2
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: lurquer on January 07, 2015, 09:50:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on January 06, 2015, 10:08:34 PM ---
Hi Lurquer,
Christ did not have uncertainty, doubt, or any of the like. He was full of God's spirit and full of grace.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Christ could not doubt. He was also filled with the wisdom of God (He did not have incomplete knowledge or lack of knowledge in something). Grace is God's divine influence upon our hearts...
In Christ,
Alex
--- End quote ---
I hear you, Alex. He was meant to die, and he knew it all along...But what then was Christ agonizing about in the Garden?
Aye, there's the rub.
I'm not so sure Jesus was "fearful" of the pain/suffering of the death he was to "glorify God with" (qua John 21:19). Many mere humans (before and since) have went to their death fearlessly. And they knew precisely what sort of death they were in for because they'd dealt it themselves. But the Lord is above all of them. Were they all "stronger' than him?
Gina and Kat, I love what you both said, but I don't believe he was fearing his physical "death". Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man...
--- End quote ---
Hi Lurquer,
Have you considered the possibility He was agonizing over the sheer agony He was about to experience? If you knew when you were going to die and how you were going to die, and the way was to be one of the most drawn out excruciating tortures known to man at the time, don't you think you too would be sweating blood?
The discovery channel once did a show on whether it was possible for the account in the garden to be true as it is recounted, in that did Jesus actually sweat blood? They had several physicians talking about crucifixion and the human body. They explained that under extreme duress, it was possible for an individual to sweat blood, and that the account of the garden may not be something that was exaggerated but actually could have happened as is recounted.
I'm not sure what to make of this "Something else.. Something greater than physical suffering...Something more than what was common to man..." but when I see things like this, all kinds of red flags go up.
In Christ,
Alex
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