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"of" or "in"?
Gina:
Hey, Michael :)
I'm glad that we're kinda on the same page. Thank you for acknowledging the points we were making. I was praying to God it wasn't in vain and it would help some. It's gonna take time. We certainly don't understand it all -- how could we? We see through a glass darkly too.
You are right, and I agree and thanks for being honest about how you feel. It is definitely NOT a simple thing for the human mind to understand.
--- Quote ---But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it,
--- End quote ---
How about the times the pharisees tried to have him killed/thrown off cliffs during his ministry, but Jesus escaped through their hands, because it was not yet His time. He was acquainted with grief before the garden.
But imagine how effective he would have been during His earthly ministry if that garden anguish was with him the entire time? Ya know? God couldn't let that be at the forefront of his mind during His ministry where He was healing people. I mean think about the fact that as a soldier, soldiers prepare for battle before the war and once they're on the battlefield if they were to be terrified (as I'm sure I would be) to the point of death on the battlefield the whole time, they wouldn't be able to do much in the way of protecting their country. If their hearts were "melting" on the battlefield before they had approached their "last enemy" [i.e. death] what would their reaction have been when they finally did meet death face to face? And not just any death on the field, where you're shot through the head point blank and didn't see the bullet coming. Jesus saw it all coming long before it actually took place. He knew but he also had work to do before that. The images of what was about to happen he was well aware of. He talked about being three days and three nights in the heart of the earth to his disciples -- he knew what it was going to be like, but the disciples had no earthly idea! I'm sure he thought about it a lot! After all, Jesus came to earth only to... DIE as a sin-offering for the sins of mankind. He knew that's where he was going, but that thought could not be at the forefront of his mind or His heart would have melted long before then. And we don't know! He could have prayed many, many times in secret. We don't know. He was always going up to the mountains to get away from the crowds.
It'd be like knowing you have a gene that will eventually cause you to develop prostate cancer or something. And you're fine with it (sorta) emotionally and psychologically you can function quite well, but when the doctor comes in and says... You better get your things in order, it's only going to be a few days.... My knees would buckle!
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: lurquer on January 09, 2015, 09:15:47 AM ---Okay John, I hear what your saying. But it is a bit more difficult for me to fully understand than you I guess. Maybe I'm just a tad thick. ;)
I'm with you 100% though in being proud of my Lord's conduct (all of his conduct!), but especially when it came time to drink that cup. And he did drink it to the dregs. But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." (john 12:27). But then we see him praying for just that. This is not a simple thing for me to understand.
I don't want to be misunderstood, though. His suffering and death was more than most men could have ever endured. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (so to speak!). And perhaps, as Kat and Gina implied, what made it all the worse was at any moment he could have come down off that cross, destroyed those mocking him, then torched the earth and said, "these people aren't worthy of me--I'm starting over!". Any mere man with that sort of power would never have gone like a sheep to his slaughter. But Christ did it... to please his Father! Wow.
Just one minor quibble, though .. Jesus wasn't "stabbed to death" by the soldiers. He had already "delivered up his spirit" before they came to "brake the legs" and finish them off. The stabbing was to prove he was, indeed, dead. (john 26:32)
--- End quote ---
Friend,
You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.
Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense. When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action. The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time that action occurred. Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense. English does not have an aorist tense. Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken. Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death. If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too. But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier. Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.
The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side. Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died. The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.
The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood. All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood. The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah. When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on January 09, 2015, 10:49:53 AM ---
--- Quote from: lurquer on January 09, 2015, 09:15:47 AM ---Okay John, I hear what your saying. But it is a bit more difficult for me to fully understand than you I guess. Maybe I'm just a tad thick. ;)
I'm with you 100% though in being proud of my Lord's conduct (all of his conduct!), but especially when it came time to drink that cup. And he did drink it to the dregs. But, all I'm saying is he knew all along he was going to drink it, "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour." (john 12:27). But then we see him praying for just that. This is not a simple thing for me to understand.
I don't want to be misunderstood, though. His suffering and death was more than most men could have ever endured. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (so to speak!). And perhaps, as Kat and Gina implied, what made it all the worse was at any moment he could have come down off that cross, destroyed those mocking him, then torched the earth and said, "these people aren't worthy of me--I'm starting over!". Any mere man with that sort of power would never have gone like a sheep to his slaughter. But Christ did it... to please his Father! Wow.
Just one minor quibble, though .. Jesus wasn't "stabbed to death" by the soldiers. He had already "delivered up his spirit" before they came to "brake the legs" and finish them off. The stabbing was to prove he was, indeed, dead. (john 26:32)
--- End quote ---
Friend,
You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.
Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense. When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action. The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time that action occurred. Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense. English does not have an aorist tense. Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken. Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death. If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too. But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier. Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.
The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side. Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died. The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.
The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood. All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood. The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah. When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
--- End quote ---
John, I am very glad you stepped into this discussion. I was starting to think we were going in circles here with Lurquor.
God bless you brother, I (And im sure many others) benefit greatly from your input. Please continue to share your wisdom in these matters that may not always be completely black and white though perhaps this one should have been settled long ago as I had found it to be. I only admonish you to share more often because you always have thoughtful responses that are edifying for the body.
Sincerely and with love,
Alex
Kat:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on January 09, 2015, 10:49:53 AM ---Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
--- End quote ---
John it is quite obvious as you say that all of Jesus' works were done by the Father, but that was true before He was a man and is now as well... His power is always from the Father, so it a matter of how you look at it I suppose.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Jesus did say to His disciples that He could pray to the Father and He would provide Him all the help He needed... so I think He actually could have come down from the cross if He desired to.
Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
v. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
v. 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"
To say that He had no Godly powers... well how was He God then? He most certainly was God and had great power as is witnessed in many Scripture.
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.
He did not need to pray to the Father for this to happen, He did it, and yes by the power/Holy Spirit from the Father in Him. There is also when the woman was healed "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him."
Mark 5:25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years,
v. 26 and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse.
v. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment.
v. 28 For she said, "If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well."
v. 29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction.
v. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My clothes?"
Another thing is He was literally walking on the water and called Peter to walk on it too.
Mat 14:26 When they saw him walking on the water, they were terrified. "It's a ghost!" they said, and screamed with fear.
v. 29 "Come!" answered Jesus. So Peter got out of the boat and started walking on the water to Jesus.
Also Jesus could read the thoughts in peoples minds.
Mark 2:6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
Mat 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
v. 25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Luke 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a little child and set him by Him,
v. 48 and said to them, "Whoever receives this little child in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great."
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
He is one with the Father with the power of God, this was always the case, during His His time on earth as He said there and of course before and after as well.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 09, 2015, 12:19:00 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on January 09, 2015, 10:49:53 AM ---Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
--- End quote ---
John it is quite obvious as you say that all of Jesus' works were done by the Father, but that was true before He was a man and is now as well... His power is always from the Father, so it a matter of how you look at it I suppose.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Jesus did say to His disciples that He could pray to the Father and He would provide Him all the help He needed... so I think He actually could have come down from the cross if He desired to.
Mat 26:52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
v. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
v. 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"
To say that He had no Godly powers... well how was He God then? He most certainly was God and had great power as is witnessed in many Scripture.
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.
He did not need to pray to the Father for this to happen, He did it, and yes by the power/Holy Spirit from the Father in Him. There is also when the woman was healed "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him."
Mark 5:25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years,
v. 26 and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse.
v. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment.
v. 28 For she said, "If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well."
v. 29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction.
v. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My clothes?"
Another thing is He was literally walking on the water and called Peter to walk on it too.
Mat 14:26 When they saw him walking on the water, they were terrified. "It's a ghost!" they said, and screamed with fear.
v. 29 "Come!" answered Jesus. So Peter got out of the boat and started walking on the water to Jesus.
Also Jesus could read the thoughts in peoples minds.
Mark 2:6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
Mat 12:24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
v. 25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Luke 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a little child and set him by Him,
v. 48 and said to them, "Whoever receives this little child in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me. For he who is least among you all will be great."
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
He is one with the Father with the power of God, this was always the case, during His His time on earth as He said there and of course before and after as well.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
Good post too. I think as you stated in the first line, it is a matter of perspective. Christ did say;
John 5:19 "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
John 5:30 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."
It appears to me that the things He did do were through the spirit of His Father that His Father gave Him which He now gives to us.
John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 15:2 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Some of the passages you quoted to say "perceived in His spirit..."
Mark 2:8 "But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? "
As you opened your post with Kat, so will I end mine with:
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Seems like you are both saying the same thing, merely one is from the relative perspective while the other from the absolute.
God bless,
Alex
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