> General Discussions
"of" or "in"?
Kat:
Hi Alex, I totally agree that is the way God works, the power came from Father that Jesus used to do what He was doing. But there are Scripture where He does not first pray to the Father...
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.
When Jesus walked on the water was it the Father walking through Him? Of course not. When He was reading the minds of the Pharisees was the Father whispering to Him their thoughts? In Mark 5 when the woman touched His robe and was healed the power came from Him, verse 30 "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him," this was power in Him that went out from Him.
Now of course that power in Him was the Holy Spirit was from the Father, that's where all power comes from, the Father, because the Father is greater (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). Jesus went back to the Father (John 14:12; 16:16; 20:17) because that was the source of everything, He is now at the right hand of that power (Matt 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69) this is symbolic of where His power comes from, but it is His to use as God of this creation.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v.2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 09, 2015, 04:43:17 PM ---
Jesus was God!
Mat 1:23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which is translated, "God with us."
That is not an assumption it was announced by an angle sent from heaven.
His being one with the Father is what made Him God too, one God. Jesus was not separate from the Father when He came down into the flesh, They have always been one and always will be.
The Holy Spirit of/from the Father is always what has worked through Jesus, when He was the OT God, when He was in the Flesh and now, God does not change, that is the way it will always work. The Son was made God of this creation from beginning to end, and that included while He was in the flesh. As God the works that were done while in the flesh, were certainly done by the power of the Holy Spirit in Him, which He had without measure. But He plainly says they were done by Himself.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
John 10:38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
You're preaching to the choir here.
For the longest time I have believed, following Ray's lead and finding tons of Scriptures, that God is One. That there is only One God as the Scriptures teach. I'm glad someone else is coming around to that understanding. I was told by many that I was wrong. I'm glad I'm not the only one anymore.
But there are several Scriptures where Jesus tells us that of Himself, He could do nothing. Nothing.
Alex has quoted some of them. So since Jesus says it, it is so. His words are truth. Two paramount truths learned from Ray: 1) God does not lie, 2) God's Word does not lie.
From Philippians 2 we learn that Jesus emptied Himself. From Jesus' own statements, we learn He could do nothing on His own. This was for the approximately 33 years He was on earth as a man. Jesus' statements on this point cannot be ignored.
Just because Jesus didn't pray before a miracle doesn't mean Jesus did it. Jesus followed His own statements and prayed to the Father privately, without fanfare, without bringing attention to Himself. Which is why I detest public prayers; Jesus tells us to pray in private.
When Lazarus was raised from the dead is an example of when Jesus acknowledged praying to the Father so that those around would know that Lazarus was raised by the power of God.
I don't want to argue the point further. Everyone is at their own level. Jesus is working with everyone on an individual basis. As the Scripture says, "All will know Me, from the least to the greatest."
But failing to distinguish Jesus from before and after he was a human (33 years) causes some misunderstandings.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on January 09, 2015, 05:53:24 PM ---
Hi Alex, I totally agree that is the way God works, the power came from Father that Jesus used to do what He was doing. But there are Scripture where He does not first pray to the Father...
Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away.
When Jesus walked on the water was it the Father walking through Him? Of course not. When He was reading the minds of the Pharisees was the Father whispering to Him their thoughts? In Mark 5 when the woman touched His robe and was healed the power came from Him, verse 30 "Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him," this was power in Him that went out from Him.
Now of course that power in Him was the Holy Spirit was from the Father, that's where all power comes from, the Father, because the Father is greater (John 10:29; 13:16; 14:28). Jesus went back to the Father (John 14:12; 16:16; 20:17) because that was the source of everything, He is now at the right hand of that power (Matt 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:69) this is symbolic of where His power comes from, but it is His to use as God of this creation.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
v.2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
v. 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hi Kat,
As for the flower withering. I am in agreement with John on this. Not everything Jesus did was brought about through public prayer. This was done for our benefit and those around Him. I shared some of these verses earlier in the thread and I will again:
John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
John 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
John 11:42 And I knew that thou [The Father] hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it,that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Never the less, it doesn't mean that Christ didn't rely on His Father for these other things. I think there are a few more of these examples but currently I havn't searched them out.
Now Jesus also said:
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Even Jesus' very own words were inspired and caused by the Father from on high.
Now as for the how he understood the pharisees thoughts, it tells us:
Mark 2:6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
v. 7 "Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
v. 8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
Where did this spirit come from? This holy spirit? From the Father who gave it to Christ. Yes, it now belongs to Christ, but it originated from the Father. It was through this power of the spirit that Christ could discern their intentions and thoughts.
I don't disagree that Christ has power but while Christ was in the form of a man and emptied of His divinity, that power came from His Father. He plainly states that of Himself He can do nothing as John re-iterated. "Nothing" is a pretty final. I'm trying to see a way around it but I just can't... I don't know... I'll pray about it some more. Thanks for the engaging discussion.
Love to you,
Alex
P.S. I agree too that there is only one God and Christ is God with power but while He was in the form of a man, emptied of His divinity, I believe He relied on the Father for everything.
lurquer:
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on January 09, 2015, 10:49:53 AM ---
Friend,
You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.
--- End quote ---
Indeed. We all do.
--- Quote ---Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
--- End quote ---
Semantics, John. Jesus said he could at any time call "legions of angels" and be relieved of his sufferings. He also said his "Father always hears me". The source of his power: Father. Controller of the power: Jesus. But he always had the power of God, even as a man. Therefore he was (always) God. Exactly in the same capacity as we shall be one day. Not hard to understand...just Semantics. Easy peasy.
But you then went on later to say that "he emptied himself of being God". No He didn't. What he emptied himself of was his former GLORY... In the flesh, He was still God. Deniest thou that, John?
--- Quote ---Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense. When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action. The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time that action occurred. Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense. English does not have an aorist tense. Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken. Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death. If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too. But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier. Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.
The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side. Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died. The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.
The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood. All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood. The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah. When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
--- End quote ---
Great language lesson, John. Doesn't make you or I a Greek expert though. I have the Rotherham's Bible and guess what! It is as you stated in Matthew 27. I never saw it till now! Thanks for the pro tip. :) Sincerely, that is an interesting fact. But it is still a quibble, IMHO. And curiously still, it doesn't seem to mesh with the other accounts of his death. Maybe he was stabbed twice--once to kill him, and again to prove he was dead when they broke the legs of the others!.. Otherwise, why the specific reference to it in the other gospels (especially John's account) after the fact? Because John said "we are witnesses to his death"... Being stabbed, shouting out, and closing your eyes is one thing... Being stabbed again through the heart under the ribs and being motionless is definitive proof one is DEAD. This proof of death--and resurrection, as John directly stated, was the very purpose of his gospel. My .02 anyway.
So, touche, John. You may have baited me into that, but thanks anyway--I learned a factoid. But again, the specific moment of his death, I think, is still a quibble.
Anyway, John, many have (and I certainly otherwise would) find you quite offensive. You call me "friend" but you speak to me like a fool. But like I said in my introduction earlier, I may be a new member, but I'm not 'new'. I have an advantage over you: I've been a here a good while "lurking", and I know you pretty well; you don't know me. I expect rudeness. I take no offense, though. It's just how God made you. :D
And as for your disciple, Alex, I know you too. 8) You're already tired of "going round in circles" with this Lurquer guy--I already have your head spinning in just one thread? Man up brother. You ain't seen nothing yet.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: lurquer on January 09, 2015, 09:21:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: John from Kentucky on January 09, 2015, 10:49:53 AM ---
Friend,
You need to continue your education both in scriptural matters and Greek grammar.
--- End quote ---
Indeed. We all do.
--- Quote ---Jesus could not come down from the cross anytime He wanted. Jesus was a human man. He had emptied Himself of all His Godly powers when He became a human. Jesus did not do any miracles or have any special powers. All His works were done by the Father. The Father could have brought Jesus down from the cross, but Jesus Himself had no such supernatural powers.
--- End quote ---
Semantics, John. Jesus said he could at any time call "legions of angels" and be relieved of his sufferings. He also said his "Father always hears me". The source of his power: Father. Controller of the power: Jesus. But he always had the power of God, even as a man. Therefore he was (always) God. Exactly in the same capacity as we shall be one day. Not hard to understand...just Semantics. Easy peasy.
But you then went on later to say that "he emptied himself of being God". No He didn't. What he emptied himself of was his former GLORY... In the flesh, He was still God. Deniest thou that, John?
--- Quote ---Also the Scripture you quoted from John is in the Greek aorist tense. When we speak of a tense with verbs, we are speaking of the time of the verb's action. The aorist tense shows action but does not show the time that action occurred. Only Greek and a few other languages (Russian) have an aorist tense. English does not have an aorist tense. Which is why the unlearned think Jesus was stabbed when the two thieves had their legs broken. Pilate gave the order for their legs to be broken to hasten their death. If Jesus were still alive, they would have broke His legs too. But they didn't do that because He was already dead, having been stabbed to death earlier. Which was what John was stating in the Greek aorist tense.
The 2nd witness is Matthew 27:49 in the Concordant Literal Version (CLV), which states that a soldier ran up and stabbed Jesus in His side. Jesus then cried out with a loud voice (due to the terrible pain of the stab wound) and died. The reason the CLV shows the complete verse and most other translations leave the extra words out is another topic.
The 3rd witness is that the Passover lambs were killed by the shedding of their blood. All the sacrifices in the Temple were killed by the shedding of their blood. The death of the sacrifices were a type of the death of the Messiah. When Jesus was stabbed to death, at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, tens of thousands of passover lambs were being killed at the same time by the shedding of their blood.
--- End quote ---
Great language lesson, John. Doesn't make you or I a Greek expert though. I have the Rotherham's Bible and guess what! It is as you stated in Matthew 27. I never saw it till now! Thanks for the pro tip. :) Sincerely, that is an interesting fact. But it is still a quibble, IMHO. And curiously still, it doesn't seem to mesh with the other accounts of his death. Maybe he was stabbed twice--once to kill him, and again to prove he was dead when they broke the legs of the others!.. Otherwise, why the specific reference to it in the other gospels (especially John's account) after the fact? Because John said "we are witnesses to his death"... Being stabbed, shouting out, and closing your eyes is one thing... Being stabbed again through the heart under the ribs and being motionless is definitive proof one is DEAD. This proof of death--and resurrection, as John directly stated, was the very purpose of his gospel. My .02 anyway.
So, touche, John. You may have baited me into that, but thanks anyway--I learned a factoid. But again, the specific moment of his death, I think, is still a quibble.
Anyway, John, many have (and I certainly otherwise would) find you quite offensive. You call me "friend" but you speak to me like a fool. But like I said in my introduction earlier, I may be a new member, but I'm not 'new'. I have an advantage over you: I've been a here a good while "lurking", and I know you pretty well; you don't know me. I expect rudeness. I take no offense, though. It's just how God made you. :D
And as for your disciple, Alex, I know you too. 8) You're already tired of "going round in circles" with this Lurquer guy--I already have your head spinning in just one thread? Man up brother. You ain't seen nothing yet.
--- End quote ---
Hi Lurquer,
This is what I understand of Christ emptying Himself:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now here we learn a little more of what this is about. When it says “mind” it is the disposition of God Himself. Where it says “equal with God” it is the same amount or degree and so on.
“Being in the form of God…” is being inherently in the form of God. Inherently, that’s an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right. I thought now that is interesting, that's 'before' He became man, He was by birth - inborn.
Strong’s uses the word, He existed as a 'innate.' Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth. That is what it means, a right by or through birth. Jesus Christ was BORN. To which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you... as a little boy in a manger? He was His Son, 'from the beginning!' The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, from the beginning. Now it says.
Phi 2:6 …thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7 but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man.
So this was an inborn right of birth, to have these powers. What did He do? Where it says, "He made Himself of no reputation," the KJ margin says, He empted Himself of all His privileges. I mean He is so mighty and everything, I mean you’re not going to kill Him. He has got to reduce down, to something really small, compared to what He was. He voluntarily did that, “He took it on Himself,” you see. He was made low enough to kill. It says in Hebrews, “A little lower than the angels,” so they could kill Him. How was that accomplished? He emptied Himself of everything God had given to Him. I guess God could have taken it away, but He didn’t take it away, Christ gave it up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you say Christ always had the power of God, even as man.
Now perhaps then you can explain to me how Christ emptying Himself of His privileges, all of them, means only relinquishing His glory and not His power too? Can you kill Christ if He had the power of God while man? What does it mean to have the "power of God?" I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
Paul says the MAN Christ Jesus gave HImself as a ransom for all, not the GOD Christ Jesus:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
In Christ,
Alex
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version