Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word! Now, that being said as well, I cannot see how Christ retained His Godly power(s) and only emptied Himself of His "glory" IF He could be killed. Though the scriptures don't specifically state Christ emptied Himself of just His glory either. Would not retaining the power of God prevent Him from truly taking on the form of a SLAVE and coming in the likeness of man to die? Perhaps these are thoughts we currently don't have the wisdom as a body to answer and in time God will provide it or perhaps we will never know it to a 100% certainty. If anyone feels they believe to know how these two things are possible and it is not something taught by Ray then feel free to send me a private message and I will try the matter and search the scriptures out to see if it is so. If ray did explain this dichotomy then please feel free to share that here in this thread as I'm sure many could benefit.
Hi Alex, I'm going to try to put something together that may help with this.
God gives us all a human spirit when we begin this life, I believe He also puts a spirit of life in spirit being as well that gives them individuality. This is what I can see that Ray indicated by this email.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ----
the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
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Now that spirit that gives us life, for us it's a physical/carnal spirit that helps us survive in this world, it is not the Holy Spirit that is another Spirit that God gives.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God.
Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Because Scripture speaks of God's heart and mind, I think all being have this... now maybe our heart and mind is not exactly like angels, but I do believe they have a capacity to think and reason as well.
The words heart and mind are hard to distinguish in Scripture as they are uses interchangeably, but we can still gather from Scripture that Christ certainly had these elements to His being. Here is an email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4178.0 -------------
No, the heart is not "just a pump." In fact it is very rare that the heart is represented in Scripture as a literal organ of the body. The "heart" of man is the seat of his deepest moral and emotional feelings.
But, no, it is not the "mind." There are separate words for "heart" and "mind" in Scripture. The mind pertains more to the intellect.
You have heard that statement: "You make me sick to my STOMACH," haven't you? The reason for this is, that deep and profound emotions can be felt in the mid-section of our torso. The people of Mesopotamia thought that the liver was the center and cause of these emotions. The Hebrews realized that it was the heart that pumped the life-sustaining blood throughout the body, hence the heart was considered the center of emotional and moral conduct (be it evil or good). This is why Jesus taught that evil thoughts of lust and hate and sin come from the heart, rather than from the mind.
One may compose a love letter in one's mind, but the feelings are coming from that part of our psyche called the heart. Likewise a murderer may make the technical plans to carry out his dirty deed in his mind, but the motivation is in his heart.
We all need to [1] "Let this MIND be in you which is also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5), and [2] "Take up My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, because I am meek and and humble in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls" (Matt. 11:29).
God be with you,
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Now what I am trying to establish is that the Son had a spirit of Life along with the Holy Spirit of God (without measure) and this was transferred into the mortal body that He received when He was born into the flesh to make Him a living soul. He certainly retained the mind/knowledge of God, because He remember who He was and where He came from...
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
With this mind Jesus processed the attributes of God and certainly would have included the knowledge/relationship He had with the Father. This is assumptions, but I do not see how He would have been God, nor knew and did the things He did without that mind. Why would that be removed anyway? His mind was what recorded His experiences and His spirit at death was sent back to the Father until His resurrection.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3617.0.html ---
Man is "made up" as you put it of body and spirit. Soul is not an ingredient. Soul is the RESULT of uniting the spirit with the body. God made man of the dust of the ground and breathed His spirit into Adam, and then Adam BECAME A LIVING SOUL. God did not put "a soul" inside of Adam. When men die, the spirit returns to God, for spirit does not die. The body returns to the dust of the ground. The soul goes (that is ceases) to exist and is said to be in "sheol" or "hades" which is the realm of death, it is not a geographical location. Man has no memory or thoughts in death (Ecc. 9:5, etc., etc.).
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What I believe was removed from Him when He came into the flesh was certainly not His mind/understanding or the Holy Spirit, but His immortality, He became mortal - Son of Man, lower/less/inferior to the angels in that they have immortality and He no longer did.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who
was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (NKJV)
Heb 2:9 But, Jesus,
made some little less than messengers, we do behold: by reason of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, to the end that, by favour of God, in behalf of every one, he might taste of death. (Rotherham)
Heb 2:9 Yet we are observing Jesus, Who
has been made some bit inferior to messengers (because of the suffering of death, wreathed with glory and honor), so that in the grace of God, He should be tasting death for the sake of everyone." (CLV)
How was Christ's immortality removed from Him? Well I don't know, but certainly the Father was capable of doing that. So at Jesus' birth instead of God giving Him a human spirit that was a clean slate like we got, He had His own mind put within that tiny baby. What that must have been like for Him growing up is really hard to imagine, but was part of what He had to experience to be fully man, everything that we have to.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
v. 15
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
mercy, peace and love
Kat