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Author Topic: angels  (Read 2930 times)

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dave

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angels
« on: January 15, 2015, 01:46:26 PM »

Perhaps this has been brought up before.
It has been made known that “hell” is not a place/location of eternal torment…. it is the “unseen” or the “grave.” I understand that now when I read the Bible it is a great weight lifted. I understand “judgment” and “damnation” and the lake of fire better. Now we have the word “angel” and from OT through the NT the word is defined and means “messenger.” Many translations use the word “messenger.”
As far as I know the word “celestial” is used once (1Cor. 15:40) and means sky, heaven, lofty, elevation, high up etc. Gen 2:1  And finished are the heavens and the earth and all their host. “Host” is defined as a “mass, force, encampment, innkeeper.” I just wonder if the translators didn’t have reasons for using the word “angel” just as they may have had reasons for using “hell, forever, everlasting. “ My reasoning is that the word “angel” has created an entirely different meaning to what we read. Man/human has imagination. Just my thoughts, I am open for understanding…….thank you.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: angels
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 04:05:38 PM »

Perhaps this has been brought up before.
It has been made known that “hell” is not a place/location of eternal torment…. it is the “unseen” or the “grave.” I understand that now when I read the Bible it is a great weight lifted. I understand “judgment” and “damnation” and the lake of fire better. Now we have the word “angel” and from OT through the NT the word is defined and means “messenger.” Many translations use the word “messenger.”
As far as I know the word “celestial” is used once (1Cor. 15:40) and means sky, heaven, lofty, elevation, high up etc. Gen 2:1  And finished are the heavens and the earth and all their host. “Host” is defined as a “mass, force, encampment, innkeeper.” I just wonder if the translators didn’t have reasons for using the word “angel” just as they may have had reasons for using “hell, forever, everlasting. “ My reasoning is that the word “angel” has created an entirely different meaning to what we read. Man/human has imagination. Just my thoughts, I am open for understanding…….thank you.

Hi Micah,

There are verses that indicate there is a heavenly host of spiritual beings, some which will be judged at a future time. Here are some verses that came to my mind that I think are talking about spiritual beings and not humanly messengers.

Luke 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Paul here makes separate reference to the angels making them distinct from the world. This would seem to me to be a confirmation of a heavenly host, sons of God, that are not human but rather spirit in their being.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?


Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade, you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.

These seem to be good references to angels or other spiritual beings that are not just human messengers though I suppose some could be interpreted as being human in nature too but then some others must be interpreted as spiritual beings such as the "covering Cherub."

Hope this helps a little!

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: angels
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 09:16:16 PM »

Setting aside what angels ARE, Micah I think you are correct in saying that man has an 'imagination' about these things, just as he does about Satan, hell, heaven, etc.  So much of what people 'know' about all of these is purely imaginary and has no basis of truth in scripture.

I'll turn you to:

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

I don't know if they will answer you directly, but there is wisdom in them both that may help.   
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moshe

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Re: angels
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 09:38:23 PM »




If anyone can explain more in Jude 1:6 and 2Peter 2:4, I would appreciate it a lot...





« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 03:06:46 PM by Moises G. »
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dave

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Re: angels
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 09:43:23 PM »

Thanks for the replies Dave and Moises G. this was already wrote

Luk 2:13 And suddenly with the messenger there came to be a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying,
Job 38:6 On what were its sockets sunk? Or who directed its cornerstone in place,
Job 38:7 When the stars of the morning jubilated together, And all the sons of Elohim shouted with joy?
Gen 6:2  and sons of God see the daughters of men that they are fair, and they take to themselves women of all whom they have chosen.

These verses in Job and Genesis do raise questions, “sons of God” “sons of Elohim.” Also we know that Elohim is plural, so it is “sons of Gods or sons of elohims.”

Jud 1:6  messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept,
2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"

“Paul here makes separate reference to the angels making them distinct from the world. This would seem to me to be a confirmation of a heavenly host, sons of God, that are not human but rather spirit in their being.”

1Co 6:2 Or are you not aware that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world is being judged by you, are you unworthy of the least tribunals?
1Co 6:3 Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs?
Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade, you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.
a cherub or imaginary figure. I do not see that cherub translates to “angel.”

Just what is a cherub? 

Yes, I see a distinction from the world certainly. I do believe there is a “heavenly host” whether they are sons of God I would question (but that’s just me.) We are dealing with spirit, but I am in a place where I really do not understand just what “spirit” is, other than spirit is energy (that again is just me.)
It just seems to me the word that has become common in use because of translation as “angels” if it were written “messenger” much of what we speak about “angels” would be understood differently or at least not something with wings. I’m just asking  and I thank you Alex for your response.
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dave

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Re: angels
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 10:06:43 PM »

YOU CAN ALSO FIND MORE INFO ABOUT ANGELS AND DEFINITIONS ON THE 23MIN. IN HELL CRITIC PAPER.


I also think that people can't help but use their IMAGination, specially when it comes to bad spirits and the devil, if the scriptures never.describe how.a.demon looks like is because of a good reason--I don't think anybody has ever seen a demon. I would be very careful on basing my beliefs of the spiritual realm in others subjective experiences. I think Hollywood and the church had already mess up with our minds enough when it comes to spiritual beings.


If anyone can explain more in Jude 1:6 and 2Peter 2:4, I would appreciate it a lot...

I think both verses are pretty clear. To me anyway.
Jud 1:6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."
2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"
For me and my understanding, those messengers, just as man has a choice when a cause or circumstance arises.....make their choice and HE stops, ceases their work. Man, who is being made in the image and likeness is given time to repent. Maybe my understanding is in
2Co 5:18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation."  I don't believe that the messengers fall into that realm. But that is just me.
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dave

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Re: angels
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2015, 11:03:00 PM »

I am not disputing the power, strength or mystery of the realm of messengers for good or bad. It just seems the word "angel" is a stigma as to the way man understands the purpose. I see the messengers as Jacob's ladder an escalator of instruction, up and down good and bad.....needed. 
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: angels
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2015, 12:19:48 AM »

Hi Micah,

The cherub are the same spirit beings who face the mercy seat on the ark patterned after that of the heavens.

Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make thecherubims on the two ends thereof

Now notice they do have wings:

Exodus 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of thecherubims be.

 paul explains these things are patterned after the geavenly reality


Hebrew 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

There are many more verses with the cherubs including the tree of life which is protectdd by one.

God bless,
Alex

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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

dave

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Re: angels
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2015, 12:23:57 AM »

Thanks
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dave

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Re: angels
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2015, 12:42:20 AM »

Hi Micah,

The cherub are the same spirit beings who face the mercy seat on the ark patterned after that of the heavens.

Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make thecherubims on the two ends thereof

Now notice they do have wings:

Exodus 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of thecherubims be.

 paul explains these things are patterned after the geavenly reality


Hebrew 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

There are many more verses with the cherubs including the tree of life which is protectdd by one.

God bless,
Alex

Alex, what is a cherub? You say the word cherub easily, to qualify, well I have no idea what a cherub is, do you. I know it is important and must have power.  It has meaning, deep meaning, but as far as I understand it has nothing to do with messengers(angels)it is very symbolic, to the ark, to the wheels, cherub has great importance. Like the seraphim, a fiery serpent, or fiery, which as well by some is acquainted to the cherub, what is it?
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: angels
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2015, 01:14:50 AM »

Hi Micah,

The cherub are the same spirit beings who face the mercy seat on the ark patterned after that of the heavens.

Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Exodus 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make thecherubims on the two ends thereof

Now notice they do have wings:

Exodus 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of thecherubims be.

 paul explains these things are patterned after the geavenly reality


Hebrew 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

There are many more verses with the cherubs including the tree of life which is protectdd by one.

God bless,
Alex

Alex, what is a cherub? You say the word cherub easily, to qualify, well I have no idea what a cherub is, do you. I know it is important and must have power.  It has meaning, deep meaning, but as far as I understand it has nothing to do with messengers(angels)it is very symbolic, to the ark, to the wheels, cherub has great importance. Like the seraphim, a fiery serpent, or fiery, which as well by some is acquainted to the cherub, what is it?

Hi Micah,

I agree with you that they seem to carry tremendous spiritual significance and I am not wise enough to discern this matter because I have never studied it in detail. This is in fact the first time I have tried looking into the matter because of your original post.

I have found interesting verses regarding them and I do not claim to understand them but I will share them with you and may God lead us into the truth on the matter if it be His will.

Ezekiel 10
1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.
3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.
4 Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the Lord's glory.
5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.
6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.
7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out.
8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.
9 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone.
10 And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.
11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went.
12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.
13 As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing, O wheel.
14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.
16 And when the cherubims went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubims lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them.
17 When they stood, these stood; and when they were lifted up, these lifted up themselves also: for the spirit of the living creature was in them.
18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from off the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubims.
19 And the cherubims lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight: when they went out, the wheels also were beside them, and every one stood at the door of the east gate of the Lord's house; and the glory of the God of Israel was over them above.
20 This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims.
21 Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings.
22 And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward.

Ezekiel 1 gives a similar description as the above to some heavenly creatures but it does not call them cherubs.

When the ark was placed in the Jewish temple, statues of Cherubs were made for the inside of the temple to surround the ark.

I found these verses in Psalms too:

Psalms 80:1 Hear us, O Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock; you who sit enthroned between the cherubim ...

Psalms 99:1 The LORD reigns, let the nations tremble; he sits enthroned between the cherubim, let the earth shake.

Again there is a lot to this stuff and maybe someone else here is more learned on this matter. I'm curious about it and will keep a watchful eye out for anything that could help in my understanding of the subject related to cherubs.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

dave

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Re: angels
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2015, 02:20:26 AM »

My reasoning is that the word “angel” has created an entirely different meaning to what we read.
I will leave it at that and thanks for the responses.
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moshe

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Re: angels
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2015, 04:26:55 AM »

My reasoning is that the word “angel” has created an entirely different meaning to what we read.
I will leave it at that and thanks for the responses.


Micah.

You should really read the links dave gave you and also the part that talks about angela in the "23 min. In hell" critic in the main page.  You might change your views on the matter.


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dave

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Re: angels
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2015, 04:51:22 AM »

 I have read 23 min. and lof 2&9 several times. Thanks. sorry I posted.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 04:56:08 AM by micah7:9 »
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Kat

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Re: angels
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2015, 11:21:37 AM »


Gen 6:2  and sons of God see the daughters of men that they are fair, and they take to themselves women of all whom they have chosen.

These verses in Job and Genesis do raise questions, “sons of God” “sons of Elohim.” Also we know that Elohim is plural, so it is “sons of Gods or sons of elohims.”

Hi Dave, I'll give you my take on these "sons of God" in Genesis. When Adam became known to the rest of the people in the world around him at that time, he must have talked to them of where he was from... and where was that? He was created by God Himself... and so what would those people have made of that? That Adam was a son of God, I would think. I also think that Adam's children may have also taken that same distinction that Adam had, that of sons of God. That is who I think is being spoken of in Genesis 6:2, actually the sons of Adam, who they may very well have been considered as gods. And then the 'daughters of men" would have been the people already living when Adam came about.

Here is an email that Ray talked about this.




http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#angels --------------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Gen. 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with "fallen angels." The "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" is not speaking of mortals and spirit beings. This is just another one of Christendom's fables.

Jesus plainly told us that,
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God., For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage [why? why aren't they given in marriage? Answer....] ...but are AS THE ANGELS of God in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).
The angels CANNOT MARRY (they have no 'marriage apparatus' if you know what I mean). Yet we are told in Gen. 6:2, that "they took them WIVES of all which they chose." To have a "wife" one must be "MARRIED." The sons of God and the daughters of men are BOTH HUMAN.

I believe that verse 4 of Gen. 6 is a terrible translation in the King James. Since most translators have bought into the 'angels fornicating with women' theory, most of them have a very strange translation of this verse. There are whole words in this Hebrew verse that are not even translated at all in most versions.

Notice this translation from the Concordant Version:
"Now the DISTINGUISHED come to be in the earth in those days, and moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of God to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the MASTERS, who are from the eon, MORTALS with the name."
Sorry I don't have time to explain the meaning of all these verses, but at least I want you to know that this is not a case of angels fornicating with women.

God be with you,

Ray
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: angels
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2015, 06:44:57 PM »


It just seems to me the word that has become common in use because of translation as “angels” if it were written “messenger” much of what we speak about “angels” would be understood differently or at least not something with wings. I’m just asking  and I thank you Alex for your response.

I agree with that.  One sees the word 'angels' and can't help but envision whatever mental 'version' of 'angels' one saw in a movie, or on a greeting card, etc. or heard about in Sunday School.  The word itself has a meaning--messenger--and if we start from there, we'd be doing good, I think. 
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dave

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Re: angels
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2015, 11:45:11 PM »


It just seems to me the word that has become common in use because of translation as “angels” if it were written “messenger” much of what we speak about “angels” would be understood differently or at least not something with wings. I’m just asking  and I thank you Alex for your response.

Well I think that way. Thanks

I agree with that.  One sees the word 'angels' and can't help but envision whatever mental 'version' of 'angels' one saw in a movie, or on a greeting card, etc. or heard about in Sunday School.  The word itself has a meaning--messenger--and if we start from there, we'd be doing good, I think.
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