> General Discussions
Kingdom of God - of the heavens
Kat:
--- Quote from: Neo on February 08, 2015, 01:59:13 PM ---Well, of course you could be 100% right, Alex, we don't know much at all about the next age. Speculation, all, but then that was the point of this thread..
I've always thought of the passage in Matthew 22 on marrying in the resurrection applied to those who were in the first resurrection only, but you're right, it's ambiguous at least. However, if you theorize that Christ meant that ALL in the resurrection(s) would not marry, then you are saying He'll raise mortal men in corrupt bodies (which he will) that will somehow be sexless? Interesting thought--I've never considered that. Does anyone else see it that way? (Certainly not John ;D )
I suppose I take these scriptures to give credence to the idea that children will be born during that time:
Is11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."
And also, below, where Isaiah seems to be speaking of the elect:
Is65:17 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
And is this not saying there will still be death (at least for a time?) The Kingdom does not come to all at once. Indeed many will find themselves "outside the gates". All of the promises you mention (with which I agree and eagerly await!) come, it seems to me, at the culmination of the Kingdom, not necessarily in the beginning, no?
I'd love to hear more comment about this very interesting subject.
--- End quote ---
Hi Neo,
Well there is a Scripture that does remove any doubt about there being a continuation of death and rebirth in the next age.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Then there is Revelation that speaks of "no more death."
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:
v.4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
So with that I don't see room for there being any more physical death once a person is raised to judgment.
Now one thing that every person must go through and that includes all raised up to judgment in the next age and that is the second death. The Scripture does not explain what death is being spoken of, that must be discerned.
I think Alex is right about there being no more marrying, nor birth of new life in the next age... I say that because of Hebrews 9 saying that after this life there is death and then judgment. I do not see where there is a continuation of the cycle of life for the human race, that seems to be what this age is for, creating human life and the next age for the judgment of those.
Now as for the "infant" and "child" spoken of in Isaiah, well there certainly will be many many children in the next. Here are a couple of places Ray spoke on that.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,201.0.html ----------
Dear Matt:
There are only two resurrection to immortality.
The first is for the chosen elect overcomes explained in part in (I Cor. 15).
All others--children, criminals, mentally challenged, the many called but not chosen, etc.
In the case with children we are told: "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the child shall die [spiritually die to his carnal mind purged through judgment] an hundred years old; but the sinner being an an hundred years old [and not yet purged of his carnal mind through judgment] shall be accursed [until he IS thoroughly purged]" (Isa. 65:20).
God's judgments are both light and harsh. (See Luke 12:45).
Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. The harden criminals will have to be "THROWN into this fiery judgment of the carnal mind and human will which hates the ways of
God. (See Rev. 20:15).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,815.0.html ------------------
Dear Reader:
Babies will not enter into the Kingdom of God. In Isa 65:20 we read this concerning judgment: "There shall be NO more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that has not FILLED his days: for the child shall die an HUNDRED years old, but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
Don't now ask me to "explain" the judgments of God, as that would take weeks.
God be with you,
Ray
lilitalienboi16:
I want to add to what ray said about the child dying a hundred years old being spiritual for judgement.
Paul said this:
1 Cor 13:10-11 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Judgement is a process and here we see that we go from being a child to being a man, an adult. I see Isaiah's reference to the child being very much a spiritual prophecy about judgement, especially because of the reference to sinners that follows directly afterwards also being a hundred years old.
Ephesians 4 puts this all together nicely in my humble opinion.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may GROW UP into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Lastly, paul talks about being a "babe" in Christ.
1 Cor 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
There may be more references to this type of idea in other scriptures but this is what came to mind for now. I could be completely wrong about this spiritual discernment of Isaiah but I think it fits with what ray wrote in those emails and I see these as good spiritual matches.
In Christ,
Alex
lurquer:
Okay, well maybe we're not understanding each other. I do want to understand this subject, so bear with me..
First of all, Kat, you and Alex continue to post scripture which I believe refers to the culmination of the Kingdom Age. Tell me how I'm wrong about that. When you read, "and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away," how do you apply that to the setting up of God's kingdom on earth, when clearly Jesus said there would be "weeping and gnashing of teeth"? Do you believe this will be only "spiritual" weeping and gnashing? And what of "my servants shall be comforted, but you shall mourn"...I could go on and on about how scripture states the judgments will be painful to the many who are resurrected therein.
You say, "Well there is a Scripture that does remove any doubt about there being a continuation of death and rebirth in the next age.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, "
Right, but won't some go alive into the Kingdom age when Christ returns? Or are you suggesting that ALL will be slain who are not in the first Resurrection? If so, I'm quite curious as to where you discern that, because I've never seen anything suggesting that in scripture, or in any of Ray's teachings. Could you elaborate? And if you agree that some do indeed go alive into the next Age, why wouldn't they still die and yet not contradict Hebrews 9:27? (They haven't died "once"). This scripture just doesn't "remove all doubt" for me.
Indeed, if you do believe that some will remain alive on the earth (as mortals) after Christ's return, then the quote you submitted from Ray:
There are only two resurrection to immortality.
The first is for the chosen elect overcomes explained in part in (I Cor. 15).
All others--children, criminals, mentally challenged, the many called but not chosen, etc.
would not necessarily contradict that. Yes, there are only Two Resurrections to Immortality, the scripture shows, but, why do you assume they both happen as one event in time and space? Even the Resurrection to life, for God's elect, doesn't unambiguously declare that "those who alive and remain" will be risen precisely at the same moment as "those who sleep in Christ"--on the contrary, it says "they will in no way precede them"...So there is a distinct time delay even with the Elect. Why not with the others? In other words, why should there only be ONE resurrection event for the unbelievers? Again,maybe I'm missing something here, but where does scripture make that clear? (I realize maybe I'm at odds with Ray on that, but he's not here for me to ask him :-\)
Maybe all that sounds silly, I don't know. I'm not trying to prove any doctrine here, just asking questions...
And again, not to overly critique your quote of Ray's, but he seems to be "spiritualizing" the death of babies at a hundred years--and maybe he's got is right, I don't know... But if he does, then he is also saying that during the Kingdom Age, while Christ rules and "His judgments are in the earth", it will yet take a hundred years to finally overcome your carnality and achieve the status of a son of God... Depressing!
Finally, you say,
"I think Alex is right about there being no more marrying, nor birth of new life in the next age... I say that because of Hebrews 9 saying that after this life there is death and then judgment. I do not see where there is a continuation of the cycle of life for the human race, that seems to be what this age is for, creating human life and the next age for the judgment of those."
Well, wouldn't the mortals who enter in still be capable of reproducing? If not, why not? And if you take the stance that there will be no mortals, but all are slain prior to His return, do you then believe that those humans will subsequently be resurrected--with mortal, corrupt bodies--but without genitalia? Not to be graphic, but, that's just a weird doctrine I've never heard. And if they will still be 'anatomically correct', then do you really believe they won't still be using their anatomy? How will this be achieved? Seriously, not trying to be a contrarian, but help me to understand all of this..
Maybe I'm completely ignorant of this theology, (wouldn't be the first time ;)) but honestly, this is all news to me. Really, big news...
Thanks,
Michael
lurquer:
PS:
On the Hebrews 9:27 scripture that it is "appointed unto man once to die"... Well, clearly, many have died more than once. Jesus raised Lazarus... then he died again. All those who "came out of their tombs" after Jesus' resurrection...they also died again. To say nothing of those who have died in recent times and been 'resurrected' by modern technology...These all were personally resurrected by Christ--some well after their bodies had decayed. A bona fide resurrection! And they all died again, no?
lilitalienboi16:
Neo, I didn't read your entire post but I want to respond to one thing that stood out to me when I skimmed it. I will go back and give it a second read but let me address this quickly:
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
This death is not a literal death. No one will need to be "slayed." This is a dying to the self. Letting the old carnal nature die so that you may be made alive spiritually. We know this because judgement has already began on the house of God but none of us have physically died.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time IS COME that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
However, we are dying to the self.
1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Those that go alive into the next age (not including the elect caught up with Christ when He returns) will still need to die to self. This dying to self happens as a part of judgement. It's not a literal death though! We are being judged now!
Hope this makes sense.
God bless,
Alex
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