> General Discussions
Kingdom of God - of the heavens
lilitalienboi16:
Yes Kat,
Read my discussion back and forth with Neo again.
You essentially echoed exactly what I was telling Neo.
I quote you:
"When the actual resurrection has happen, at the end of this age, what is the point of physical death after that?"
That is exactly what i'm trying to get across to him. Since judgement comes after we die to self, and not physically die (because judgement has began at the house of God and none of us have physically died yet), dying LITERALLY / PHYSICALLY a second time in the next age after the resurrection serves no purpose. The next age is all about judgement.
lurquer:
Alex:
I also don't understand what you are saying..you must not have understood me. I did not say that those who were raised from the dead would die again (however this possibility was not scripturally negated, IMO), but that there would still be physical death (for a time) during the kingdom. I was speculating on those who would enter alive into the kingdom (age)--that they may yet die physically (and provided scriptures which gave me that idea), and also that IF there was still procreation going on, these would/could also be subject to death.
I think Kat has given me enough to think about to believe her understanding of it (obviously that is a much happier scenario and I hope it is true!). But I won't be dogmatic about it, or the possibility of procreation, until I can be pursued by scripture in...yes, two or three witnesses. ;)
Kat:
Thank you for your continued thoughts and posts from Ray. They are very helpful. And do let me know when you find that second witness to Hebrews 9:27!! (I would very much like to see it your way, and be sure of it..
John:
I understand your post was intended as humor. That I didn't "get it" was not because I'm "religious people"... I can assure you, I'm not. If God would choose me as one of His Elect, I've no doubt I'd be one of the LEAST in the kingdom. I just found it to be off-humor. Not funny really. Maybe you could try a different version of the joke and I'll try and get it next time. :D
lilitalienboi16:
Neo I understand. Let me be plain. I don't think there is any two or three witnesses that establish death will exist in the next age, at least not physical literal death. The next age is for judgement and that comes after death. That is the pattern we see in scripture. Physical literal death would serve no purpose in the next age. There is a resurrection of the dead coming and then the books are opened with the dead standing. There is no indication that there is a ressurection, judgment, more death and sleep, then another ressurection later etc.. that's just not the pattern we see in scripture.
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
Oh okay Alex, I understand now. I'm going to put Ray's explanation about how the elect will experience 'death' and then enter judgment in this life... trying to provide excerpts from Ray as much as I can on these things, for anybody that might need it.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ------------------------
We learned that Gehenna fire, and unquenchable fire, and eonian fire, and the furnace of fire, and being salted with fire, and the lake of fire, are all the same fire, and this fire is JUDGMENT. Now then, since the lake of fire is judgment, and the lake of fire "is" also the second death, if follows that the second death also "is" judgment. THE SECOND DEATH IS JUDGMENT, AND JUDGMENT IS THE SECOND DEATH.
Had God wanted to make things easy, He could have inspirited Heb. 9:27 to read like this: "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the SECOND death."
For that is what the second death is, JUDGMENT. Likewise then, Judgment is the SECOND death. After the ONCE to die comes the SECOND to die. Or: After the FIRST death comes the SECOND death. Simple enough when God gives us eyes to see. But there is still an enigma about this verse that we will cover a little later.
v
WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?
But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.
Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:
"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).
There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."
The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).
But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."
"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).
The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.
This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:
"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:08).
Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.
How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.
Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?
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Here is an interesting Scripture Michael.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Isa 25:7 And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations.
v. 8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lurquer:
Thank you, Kat.
Beautiful arrangement of scripture...
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