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The Marriage Vow
Ian 155:
--- Quote from: Kat on February 13, 2015, 08:20:58 AM ---
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on February 12, 2015, 05:01:04 PM ---Eve speaks of one tree Singular....
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
this is A tree but represents 2 things i believe carnal and spiritual the Lust,lust and the pride is carnal or interpreted by our senses the Good Is the interpretation by the spirit and so is the war today carnal vs spiritual (this is what I am seeing ) I may not be fully enlightened on this yet
The tree of life is representative of Christ I believe I was referring to the tree in the midst
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Eve partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a parable that represents this life, everybody that lives is given this spirit/breath of life, the "good and evil." That is just living this life, it's not all bad, there is some good, but there is always evil that comes with it.
I believe this is a parable however one needs to use /mention the persons named in order to explain it I mean I dont believe this is a literal tree
There is no spiritual war/struggle going on with the vast majority of mankind right now. The Holy Spirit is only given to a very few that God has chosen and draws to Christ and only these few are struggling to die to self/carnality, putting on the new man.
Well Kat I do believe there is constant war in our minds or in the area of understanding ...this war is about the truth or the lie I believe it is the Holy Spirit who enables us in the discernment process I mean even kids get so oppressed so I dont know really in terms of what you are say re majority, I really don't know this stuff I mean Jesus rebuked the disciple for questioning the "judas"outcome
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. This is true, all will though
All those Scripture that speaks of the "war of carnal vs spiritual" is speaking to believers that have been given of that Holy Spirit now. But that only began to be given at Pentecost after Jesus Christ was sacrificed and became the Redeemer. Kat do you /could one say pentecost is not a particular day I mean my pentecost could be different from yours ?
John 7:37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
v. 38 Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
v. 39 Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
So as you can see the tree of the knowledge of good and evil does not give the Holy Spirit, that can only come from Christ Jesus, the Tree of life.
Well i venture to suggest it facilitates the process which seems is, 1st partake,then "death",and once we die and are reborn well it comes into play one must die... according to sovereign design, If we examine Saul he was struck down to the dust,he was raised Paul, I mean he had to be a pharisee 1st in order to be a son
What I was trying to say is we need the bad to notice good and vice versa Ray would say, hot is needed in order to know cold.
Anyway this is way off the initial post I made re Marriage
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat:
--- Quote from: Neo on February 12, 2015, 10:27:16 PM ---Kat, I very much appreciate the time and thought you put into your posts. I do read them carefully. I somehow feel like many others here do not make the same effort...careful reading is important.
You do understand what I am asking, I see. You offered an interesting scripture in Malachi which mentions a "covenant". But the problem is we do not know what the covenant is. Let me just say this: Some marriages begin by covenant indeed, this is what an "espousal" actually is...a "promise"...to be married. When a man had espoused a woman to be his wife (or more likely covenanted with the father of the woman to take his daughter to wife) he was considered 'as good as married'. We see this played out in the story of Joseph and Mary--in that he is called "her husband" even though they had not yet 'had a ceremony' (or none is recorded), nor had they yet "consummated" the marriage. BUT, he had a legal right (in Jewish law) to "put her away privately" when he found she was pregnant (it was obviously not his).
Let's stop just a second.. Let's even say they actually had a 'ceremony and the exchange of vows' prior to her becoming pregnant. Whatever the case, at that point, the scriptures say he was "her husband" (Matt1:19) Ok?
Now, therefore the angel of the Lord had to personally tell Joseph what was going on and to "fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife..." (vs. 20). She was not his wife yet. He had not taken her to wife. But how can that be, if they'd already covenanted with each other?? Because the covenant is not the THING...It is the PROMISE of the thing. Once the thing occurs, the covenant is no longer necessary. It has been fulfilled. Surely we all understand this concept, as New Testament believers.
This is the covenant Malachi is speaking of. We ourselves have been given the same covenant by Christ in that we are now espoused to Him. We are not yet married, but we reckon ourselves as though we are (Paul speaks much on this as you know). The Marriage has not been consummated.
So again, there may be a vow, but we have just seen that the vow is not the thing. This, I know, is contrary to what Ray said. He said 'it was the thing itself'.
But do all marriages begin with a vow? If a marriage is a "union between a man and a woman, wherein they become joined as one flesh" (you quote Genesis 2:24 to verify this) then those who have become one flesh are married. Have I made a logic error here? I hope not.
Dave, I appreciate what you wrote, and your warning was helpful. You posted in part, this quote from 1Cor 6:
"Know ye not, that your bodies are the members of the Messiah? Shall one take a member of the Messiah, and make it the member of a harlot? Far be it. Or know ye not, that whoever joineth himself to a harlot, is one body [with her]? For it is said, They twain shall be one body."
This is very interesting. We just defined marriage as a "union between a man and a woman, wherein they become joined as one flesh" (we got this from Genesis). Why was Paul warning those to flee from fornication? Because "the twain shall be one". You have married yourself to a harlot. Where is the vow in that marriage? What oath was taken between the two? I'd reckon none, except a promise to pay a certain sum. (Some harlots give it away for free though!). And who were the witnesses to that transaction? I'd venture none. Yet they became married, according to Paul.
Yet there was a Witness. There is always a witness to every marriage, legitimate or not. The same Who witnessed the union of Adam and Eve.
None of that was to say which marriages are "legal" or not; I'm not speaking of that...the "vows and legal commitments" that you mentioned, Kat, are a state conception, and it is irrelevant to God. That is why a "legal marriage" between two men is NOT a marriage to God. Man's laws are irrelevant; God invented marriage and His definition will always trump man's.
Finally, you said,
"The vows form a legal commitment and it is sexual intercourse that 'consummates' the marriage. In most states a marriage that is not consummated with intercourse can be annulled. Whereas divorce dissolves a marriage, getting an annulment voids the marriage completely, as if it never happened."
Well, is that what Ray teaches? Is not the vow, the legal commitment, the thing itself? But if it is, then how does a "legal annulment" for an "unconsummated marriage" undo the vow? It can't; that's called 'having your cake and eating it too'.
Unless...the vow was to consummate the marriage. Therefore, sex has everything to do with marriage.
I hope you can see how badly woven this whole yarn is that the CHURCH has foisted on us via the STATE. Ray once said something along the lines of "the Church has gotten nothing right, not one thing..." Well they got this wrong too. But it seems somehow Ray got tangled up in it.
Hopefully we can get into Octoberose's excellent observations soon. Thanks for paying attention to all the words!
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--- Quote ---But do all marriages begin with a vow? If a marriage is a "union between a man and a woman, wherein they become joined as one flesh" (you quote Genesis 2:24 to verify this) then those who have become one flesh are married. Have I made a logic error here? I hope not.
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In this comment I do have a different view on this union between Adam and Eve. There is only a very brief description of what happened there, but did they just have sex creating a marriage? I don't think so, look at this verse.
Gen 2:22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
God brought her to Adam, I believe this not only could have, but did represented the wedding and also the vows, as even to this day the Father of the bride 'gives' the bride to the man. It was also the verse that first says, "a man shall leave his father and mother," obviously a woman has to do the same thing. But that is stated first because that comes first, that in ancient time that (the procession of the man and the woman leaving their home) it was a much greater part of the wedding ceremony. So after that happens then "they shall become one flesh."
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
--- Quote ---Why was Paul warning those to flee from fornication? Because "the twain shall be one". You have married yourself to a harlot. Where is the vow in that marriage? What oath was taken between the two? I'd reckon none, except a promise to pay a certain sum. (Some harlots give it away for free though!). And who were the witnesses to that transaction? I'd venture none. Yet they became married, according to Paul.
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Eph 5:31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
What Paul does say also is that "a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife," as I already said this comes first, and I believe this represents the wedding.
Now Paul did say that somebody that joins - has sex with a prostitute becomes one body with her, and this is true that is exactly what happens during sex.
1Co 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh."
But Paul is not saying they are married, that is a far stretch assume to make, maybe in some cultures, but not what God instituted or what Paul is saying... just saying, that cannot be accurate as I see it.
The ceremony and the vows is what God instituted to come first, it is a commitment to each other before God and brings a blessing from God, then the marriage begins, sex included.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Ian 155:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on February 13, 2015, 11:43:12 AM ---In case anyone is being confused by the idea that Ian put forth that there is only one tree in the garden, let me put an end to that confusion with this:
Sunshine..... I did not say there is only one tree I said humankind did "Eve" referred to one tree when speaking with the "serpent"
quote Eve speaks of one tree Singular....
Gen 3:2 And saying is the woman to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we are eating,
Gen 3:3 yet from the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, the Elohim says, `Not eat of it shall you, and not touch it shall you, lest you be dying..
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Kat:
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on February 13, 2015, 12:27:24 PM ---Kat do you /could one say pentecost is not a particular day I mean my pentecost could be different from yours ?
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John 7:37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
v. 38 Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
v. 39 Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Ian, I gave you this outright statement of Scripture from Christ Jesus and you ignored it and that's how you are going to explain that the Holy Spirit wasn't only given after His resurrection... by saying Pentecost is not on a particular day? What?
You can believe whatever you so desire, but your continuing in bringing these obscured ideas here is a big problem...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Ian 155:
--- Quote from: Kat on February 13, 2015, 01:20:47 PM ---
--- Quote from: Ian 155 on February 13, 2015, 12:27:24 PM ---Kat do you /could one say pentecost is not a particular day I mean my pentecost could be different from yours ?
--- End quote ---
John 7:37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
v. 38 Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
v. 39 Now this He said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Ian, I gave you this outright statement of Scripture from Christ Jesus and you ignored it and that's how you are going to explain that the Holy Spirit was only given after His resurrection... by saying Pentecost is not on a particular day? What? HUH
You can believe whatever you so desire, but your continuing in bringing these obscured ideas here is a big problem...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Once again.... It was a question Do YOU...COULD IT BE ???
Your frustration may be due to your not providing/being able to provide relevant scripture... Is the last day of the feast a literal day? what does it symbolise ?what does Great day /greatest day, symbolise ?
You say you gave me an outright statement - pertaining to what ?
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