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lurquer:
--- Quote from: Kat on April 10, 2015, 01:00:20 PM ---
Moises, I think it's more of a thing as Paul said "customs to whom customs" (Rom 13:7). We follow the custom, that's just the accepted practice for society of the culture and time period in which we live. ...
I think it's actually going through those motions of satisfying whatever requirements/traditions there is, to be seen and accepted as legally married by the community you are living in...
But I do believe God, who is actually the great designer of what civilization has been down through the ages and is now, recognizes the marriage rituals.
--- End quote ---
Even the "gay" ones?
Kat:
Michael my comments were specifically to Moises concerning marriage between a man and a woman... I have clearly said I do not agree with a same sex union. In scripture Paul makes it clear how he feels about this.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
v. 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
v. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
v. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
So I think we can conclude what Paul calls "vile" "dishonor their bodies" "against nature" "shameful" "error" is sinful. What does Scripture say about how God feels about sinners.
John 9:31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.
Psa 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear.
Pro 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lurquer:
Kat,
I know you don't agree with a "same sex union". I wasn't challenging that. Of course, I would argue such a "union" is a fantasy anyway and simply doesn't exist. Homosexual behavior exists, and state-sanctioned "marriage" of same-gendered persons exists vis-a-vis the so-called "license"...Because, well, that's the law.
Doesn't make it right, or true. But that's my point, and maybe others' as well.
You said marriage is 'legal' or 'right' or 'accepted' in the eyes of God so long as "we follow the custom, that's just the accepted practice for society of the culture and time period in which we live." So I merely was pointing out that you can't really have it both ways,can you?
If you define marriage as you have (see my bolded citations of yours in my prior post), then you have to have it the STATE'S WAY. Because THEY define the matter--the "accepted practice", the "requirements", the "traditions", as they've legally defined. And they've said same-sex "unions" are valid.
But if you say they are not valid, then how do you not contradict yourself?
And why does what's accepted by the masses--the customs/traditions of (evil) men--have ANY relevance to followers of Christ? You said we "follow the custom"... WHY?? I couldn't disagree more. "Learn NOT the way of the heathen."
Kat:
--- Quote from: Neo on April 12, 2015, 12:29:22 AM ---
You said marriage is 'legal' or 'right' or 'accepted' in the eyes of God so long as "we follow the custom, that's just the accepted practice for society of the culture and time period in which we live." So I merely was pointing out that you can't really have it both ways,can you?
--- End quote ---
Well since we are still physically in this world we do have to live according to the laws of the land - society and there is nothing wrong with partaking of the benefits the gov offers, when we have paid taxes. Peter teaches that we are to submit ourselves to ordinances of man.
1Peter 2:12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
v. 13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
v. 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
But as we are also to obey God, first and foremost, and Scripture certainly does ordain and promote marriage, then we should get married. Now how are we to go about the marrying of 2 people, when the Bible only gives us the rudimentary bases for it, "leave father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh"? Well we follow the accepted custom for where we live. Is this a contradiction, by saying it needs to be both ways... you need to marry according to Scripture and society? I don't think so.
Now when you insert same sex marriage into the equation, that is a whole other aspect and I have shown, in Scripture, it's not an acceptable practice in the eyes of God, according to Paul. So there you have it, unless you are in accordance with what the Scripture teaches is God's will, as same sex marriage is not, so God certainly does not honor it.
State/gov can validate whatever they choose... and there is much in this world that believers do not partake in. That is an absolutely key element in believers walk, to know how to "live peaceably" (Rom 12:18) in this world and not be conformed to this world.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
1Peter 4:1 Therefore, since the Messiah suffered in a mortal body, you, too, must arm yourselves with the same determination, because the person who has suffered in a mortal body has stopped sinning,
v. 2 so that he can live the rest of his mortal life guided, not by human desires, but by the will of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lurquer:
--- Quote from: Kat on April 12, 2015, 11:48:11 AM ---
State/gov can validate whatever they choose... and there is much in this world that believers do not partake in. That is an absolutely key element in believers walk, to know how to "live peaceably" (Rom 12:18) in this world and not be conformed to this world.
--- End quote ---
Exactly. What the state passes for "law" is relevant to believers only in as much as it agrees with God's laws. All else is man's law, useful only to corral the masses of humanity which know not God. None of us here should NEED the law of the state to know what is the right thing to do. It's not for us. Much of it actually contradicts our (God's) law. That much is irrelevant for us.
You've agreed with this in that you distinguish those state laws which are in enmity with God's laws by saying (as Peter did), "We ought to obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29) Therefore when Peter later says, "submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake", we have to be careful in interpreting that lest we make Peter contradict himself. Perhaps the bolded phrase may help some to understand what he was saying.
What therefore the state defines as "lawful" (such as homosexual unions) is nevertheless NOT lawful in our eyes. We disregard it. We "conduct ourselves honorably," yet without "honoring" the state. We don't submit to their traditions or ordinances or customs UNLESS they are from God's Law through His Word. God's Word--His definitions are the primary thing and they always trump man's. What marriage then is, or isn't, has nothing to do with "local customs" or "legally accepted practices", "requirements", or "traditions". It is what God says it is or it is nothing at all.
The reality is, as you said, "we are still physically in this world and do have to live according to the laws of the land"--but NOT because we necessarily agree with them. We follow the righteous laws because they were already written in our hearts. The others we follow to avoid unrighteous persecution from the hands of the enforcers. None of us desire to be kidnapped, caged, beaten or killed, and that is why we "pay our taxes". At least that's the reason I pay my taxes. And the only reason.
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