Jesus unveils Our Father

[cheekie3]

All -

I keep wondering about the time when Our Father through Wisdom Birthed Christ and then gave Jesus All that He had.

Was it an instant download and then Jesus had All that Our Father had.

Or was it a process over a very long period of time.

How did Jesus learn and understand about The Majesty and Glory of Our Father.

Our Father must have taught Jesus about Righteousness and the Fruit of His Spirit - and the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Could Jesus have grasped and understood the differences between Good and Evil without experiencing these Himself.

We learn and experience Good and Evil.

We who are now dragged by Our Father to the knowledge of The Truth, then learn and experience the Called and The Chosen Elect.

Jesus then starts to Unveil or Unfold Our Father to us, as our hearts desire is to get to know Our Heavenly Father more and more - and to continually please Him.

Yet all this is not directly with Our Father but always through Jesus.

What do Our Father and Our Lord Jesus Christ now do - as they are both Perfect.

They Both continuously pour out their Loving Kindness upon Humanity - on both the Wicked and the Righteous (in Christ) - yet most of Humanity remain in total darkness for most of their alloted life experience - although all of us have known and seen Evil upon us Framed and Restricted - with the majority of us unaware that this is being Sovereignly Managed by Our Saviour.

When we will All be like Jesus Christ - will we be in the Bosom of Our Father; and see Our Father as He Truly is in His Glory and Majesty and still Live - like Jesus does now.

George.

[rick]

Hi George,

We know Christ became obedient through suffering so I'm only assuming by His suffering that His understanding took time.

I believe in all of God's creation all things start from the ground up so to speak.

[Dennis Vogel]

Hi George,

We know Christ became obedient through suffering so I'm only assuming by His suffering that His understanding took time.

I believe in all of God's creation all things start from the ground up so to speak.

Maybe I'm missing something?

For Christ to 'become' obedient implies He was not obedient at some time.

[indianabob]

Perhaps this will explain a little.

Hebrews 5:8
7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,...


Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

So then Jesus apparently "became" obedient through a series of trials in his flesh. Trials that he had not experienced before and that perhaps were provided to demonstrate to the human race that Father God understands that we need a sign to convict us, especially prior to our conversion.

This is a hard topic to grasp fully and I solicit comments from those better versed in scripture.

Indianabob

Hi George,

We know Christ became obedient through suffering so I'm only assuming by His suffering that His understanding took time.

I believe in all of God's creation all things start from the ground up so to speak.

Maybe I'm missing something?

For Christ to 'become' obedient implies He was not obedient at some time.

[Dennis Vogel]

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

IMO, this proves Christ was never disobedient.

So Christ was tempted and learned obedience, all without sinning.

Tough act to follow.

We are tempted, we fail, are disobedient and sin, and we lean little. And on and on ...

Still a little sketchy. Christ suffered consequences for sins He did not commit. But somehow learned obedience.

[lilitalienboi16]

All -

I keep wondering about the time when Our Father through Wisdom Birthed Christ and then gave Jesus All that He had.

Was it an instant download and then Jesus had All that Our Father had.

Or was it a process over a very long period of time.

How did Jesus learn and understand about The Majesty and Glory of Our Father.

Our Father must have taught Jesus about Righteousness and the Fruit of His Spirit - and the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Could Jesus have grasped and understood the differences between Good and Evil without experiencing these Himself.

We learn and experience Good and Evil.

We who are now dragged by Our Father to the knowledge of The Truth, then learn and experience the Called and The Chosen Elect.

Jesus then starts to Unveil or Unfold Our Father to us, as our hearts desire is to get to know Our Heavenly Father more and more - and to continually please Him.

Yet all this is not directly with Our Father but always through Jesus.

What do Our Father and Our Lord Jesus Christ now do - as they are both Perfect.

They Both continuously pour out their Loving Kindness upon Humanity - on both the Wicked and the Righteous (in Christ) - yet most of Humanity remain in total darkness for most of their alloted life experience - although all of us have known and seen Evil upon us Framed and Restricted - with the majority of us unaware that this is being Sovereignly Managed by Our Saviour.

When we will All be like Jesus Christ - will we be in the Bosom of Our Father; and see Our Father as He Truly is in His Glory and Majesty and still Live - like Jesus does now.

George.

Hi George,

Why do you think Christ came forth after wisdom? Christ is God and the God of the old testament is Christ. There is only one God, there is none beside Him.

How do you know Jesus Christ is not the God, there is only one God, who experienced the good and evil which then, after having travailed in agony to bring forth wisdom, created this creation?

Colossians 1:16-18 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Its possible we may never see the Father but again I cannot say with certainty on that. Its definitely something ray talked about a few times.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

To the rest:

I am not of the opinion that Christ learned obedience while in His stay on earth. He is the God of the universe and through Him came all things. They are sustained by Him. I find it unlikely that He had as of yet not been obedient to His Father. In Fact, if Christ were learning obedience to His Father, this would have been visible during His ministry but as Dennis pointed out, He was without sin though tempted in all manners. We also have this witness that He became obedient even unto death. That means all the way to the end He was obedient. I don't see it as meaning He was learning during this time or that prior to this point he was NOT obedient.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

1 Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

He is, was, and will be, the express image of His Father. I just can't see Him as not having been obedient or even perfect until after His physical death. In fact, I don't even think Hebrews is saying that. We need two witnesses to establish doctrine. Notice Hebrews 9:10 starts with... "WE SEE..." Is this not a case of the relative verse absolute? In OUR EYES we see Him as having been made perfect in the aspect of our salvation? Furthermore, perhaps this has nothing to do with Him being obedient to the Father or perfect God but rather perfect in the aspect of being a captain for salvation? As Hebrews 4:15 makes the point, we have a high priest who can fully sympathize with all of our weaknesses and suffering as He too was tempted and suffered. A perfect author and finisher of our faith!

God bless,
Alex

[Kat]

When you think about it, when were the Father and Son not "one"? They have always been united as one. When the Son "came forth,' He and the Father were not like we think of two separate persons.

John 10:30 I and My Father are one.

Mat 11:27 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one fully knows the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows the Father except the Son and the person to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.

When Christ spoke about hearing the Father, Their communication did not require literal speaking, as we do. The Father did not have to actually speak and explain things to Christ, They have the same mind, it is the Father that dwells in Him that spoke through Him.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

John 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

When we will All be like Jesus Christ - will we be in the Bosom of Our Father; and see Our Father as He Truly is in His Glory and Majesty and still Live - like Jesus does now.

Well George, this is what Jesus said to that.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
v. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Perhaps this will explain a little.

Hebrews 5:8
7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,...


Philippians 2:8
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

So then Jesus apparently "became" obedient through a series of trials in his flesh. Trials that he had not experienced before and that perhaps were provided to demonstrate to the human race that Father God understands that we need a sign to convict us, especially prior to our conversion.

Bob, even as God the Son through the experience of coming in the flesh, though humbling as it was, now He understand us "perfectly" having actually gone through it all Himself.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. Instead, we have one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet he never sinned.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cheekie3]

Alex -

I agree with All the Scriptural Witnesses you have quoted.

I am not sure about Wisdom and Jesus Christ - and I believe Ray taught in one or two of his teachings that 'Wisdom' spoke in the First Person - meaning it was Jesus Christ, the God of The Old Testament; and on another teaching Ray said something on the lines that 'Wisdom' is more than that (Jesus Christ).

The Enigma of God - our Father and Jesus Christ who are One - is something not easily understood; and I believe as Ray taught, that 'Wisdom' being the 'Principle Thing' is the key to all this - and I do not fully understand the Enigma that is Our God and Saviour.

I believe Ray taught that The Father had to first have the 'Wisdom' to bring His Creation into Being - which included 'Birthing' Jesus Christ; or when Jesus come out from The Father (before the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth).

I do not believe Jesus' Obedience has anything to do with sin as The Scriptures state that Jesus is without sin - as I believe that Jesus' Obedience to His Father is part of the unique Oneness Jesus Has with His Father - as the One True Unified God.

God Bless.

George.

[cheekie3]

Kat -

I agree with all that you have posted on this.

One of the things I was thinking of - goes back to when Ray asked I believe 'Harry' if we would ever see Our Father Face to Face - and I recollect that 'Harry' said he believed we will.

I was honing in to the fact that we are all being 'made into the image of God' - and ultimately we will all be like Jesus Christ. As Jesus Christ is the only one to see Our Heavenly Father, I was wondering that when God's Creation Plan to make us in His Image is complete - would we, then being like Jesus - actually see Our Father Face to Face.

Then again, as The Father and The Son are One - and all we know is always through Jesus Christ - we may see Jesus Face to Face but not Our Father.

Love, Peace and Joy to All.

George.

[lilitalienboi16]

Alex -

I agree with All the Scriptural Witnesses you have quoted.

I am not sure about Wisdom and Jesus Christ - and I believe Ray taught in one or two of his teachings that 'Wisdom' spoke in the First Person - meaning it was Jesus Christ, the God of The Old Testament; and on another teaching Ray said something on the lines that 'Wisdom' is more than that (Jesus Christ).

The Enigma of God - our Father and Jesus Christ who are One - is something not easily understood; and I believe as Ray taught, that 'Wisdom' being the 'Principle Thing' is the key to all this - and I do not fully understand the Enigma that is Our God and Saviour.

I believe Ray taught that The Father had to first have the 'Wisdom' to bring His Creation into Being - which included 'Birthing' Jesus Christ; or when Jesus come out from The Father (before the Creation of the Heavens and the Earth).

I do not believe Jesus' Obedience has anything to do with sin as The Scriptures state that Jesus is without sin - as I believe that Jesus' Obedience to His Father is part of the unique Oneness Jesus Has with His Father - as the One True Unified God.

God Bless.

George.

Hi George,

Wisdom says:

Proverbs 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
Proverbs 8:23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.

The word for "LORD" is not Elohim. It is not the duel plural form of God but rather the name of God. Now to my understanding, this is attributed to Jesus Christ specifically (though Jesus was given His Father's very own name). If to Jesus Christ then also to His Father as everything Jesus Christ has He got from His Father.

So to my understanding, Jesus Christ possessed wisdom in the beginning which would necessitate that His Father did as well. Therefor, we cannot say that wisdom was something the Father possessed and not Jesus Christ. Likewise it follows that wisdom is not Jesus Christ as Jesus Christ whom you say is wisdom would then be talking about possessing Himself in Proverbs 8:22.

Interestingly, one of the seven spirits of God is the spirit of Wisdom (Isaiah 11:2) and Jesus Christ possess the seven spirits of God (Rev 3:1). God is spirit (John 4:24) and the Father of spirits (Heb 12:9).

Interestingly too, while in the flesh, Jesus Christ was filled with wisdom and then increased in it even more. I believe this implies he was super abounding in Wisdom.

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

These things make it difficult for me to see Jesus Christ as being the same thing as wisdom though He certainly is wisdom FOR US seeing as He is the Word of God and reveals or unfolds the Father for us:

1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

I don't think ray said the Father had to first have "wisdom" to bring His creation into being but rather that GOD had to have wisdom to bring into being His creation.

Remember, Genesis says that man has become like one of US to know both good and evil. It didn't say that we became like the FATHER to know good and evil. This seems to indicate that Jesus too experienced the evil that His Father did and this statement was made long before He ever came and suffered as a man. I would think the possessing of wisdom followed this same pattern.

Here is the final statement by Ray on the audio of "Did God ever learn,"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.0.html -------------------------------------------

Before God could create us and the universe and creatures in His own likeness, He had to know how to do it. How hard was that? 'Oh but nothing is too hard for God.' There is nothing 'too hard' for God. Too hard, that means impossible, but how close to that does it come? Are things very very hard for God at times? Did God ever do a honest days work? Did God ever suffer? Was God ever longsuffering? Did He have to have patience? 

He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it before the creation came, the master plan and the wisdom to do it. How did He get that wisdom? He birthed it! Under the travail and pain and agony, that He passed on to women to experience a minute little insignificant part of what it is like to bring about children that are going to be in the image of God. 

He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, 'I don't see it.' I don't care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So don't think that God hasn't done anything for us. 

God has never suffered? God has never had to work hard? God has never had to go long periods of time and not get what it is He wanted? Don't think that way anymore. You have a Father in heaven that can identify with everything you are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feel free to agree or disagree.

God bless,
Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

How does one learn obedience by being disobedient?  Do you learn to cook by not cooking?  Or by burning it?

Not that there aren't lessons to be learned from disobedience--just not 'how to be obedient'.  "The things He suffered" seem to me to have more to do WITH His creation.  As Ray said...there is nothing impossible with God, but there are things that are extremely difficult.  "Wisdom" was birthed in travail.  God did 'an honest day's work' for sure.

Besides that, being tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin IS suffering.

[Kat]

Kat -

I agree with all that you have posted on this.

One of the things I was thinking of - goes back to when Ray asked I believe 'Harry' if we would ever see Our Father Face to Face - and I recollect that 'Harry' said he believed we will.

I was honing in to the fact that we are all being 'made into the image of God' - and ultimately we will all be like Jesus Christ. As Jesus Christ is the only one to see Our Heavenly Father, I was wondering that when God's Creation Plan to make us in His Image is complete - would we, then being like Jesus - actually see Our Father Face to Face.

Then again, as The Father and The Son are One - and all we know is always through Jesus Christ - we may see Jesus Face to Face but not Our Father.

Love, Peace and Joy to All.

George.

John 6:46  Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen (G3708) the Father.

G3708 horaō - Properly to stare at (compare G3700), that is, (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; passively to appear: - behold, perceive, see, take heed.

Yes indeed we do have this Scripture from Christ... could the sense be that He "has seen" as in perceive/discern? Yet the word used there "seen" could certainly be there intentionally so as to allow for the deception that must be in this present age? Because we also have these Scripture as well.

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Here is a passage from the conference 'What Is The Father's Will.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html --------------

So let's think about this a little bit, who is the Father? In Him we live and breath and have our being. Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish.  The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.

A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light. It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen. So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God. The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.

Now this is what the Scriptures say, we are in God and God is in us. So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair. God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.

God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you can't see Him, not literally. We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our innermost being.

The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God.  I'm trying to help you right now, to see God. So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didn't, when you walked in here. If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.

God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He'll still be after we leave. Because this desk is here and this desk has it's cohesion in Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart. It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it's passed off out of Him. One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him. GOD IS ALMIGHTY!

What did Jesus say when He left His apostles and vanished out of their sight.

He said, "all power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth," (Matt. 28:18).

That's why He has come, He's not the Father, but He's God and He possesses all power in heaven and earth. By being the One, who possesses all power in heaven and earth, He is God. He didn't have all power in heaven and earth from all eternity, it was given to Him. One God, everything is out of that God. We're in Him and He's in us, because He's Spirit. Not a Spirit, in some geographical location.  The reason God knows everything is in all places at all times, is because that's where He is. He's Spirit and He refers to Himself as Spirit. My Spirit is here, there and everywhere.

David was inspired to write, where can I go to get away from you God, up to heaven, down to sheol, (Psalms 139:7-12).
There's no place I can go, where you are not. Why?  God is Spirit, God is not a man, get that out of your head. He (God) tells us that, God is not a man... Jesus Christ is a man.

Where is God?  EVERYWHERE!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[cheekie3]

Alex -

Very well explained.

I agree.

Thanks for clarifying with Scriptures.

George.

[cheekie3]

Kat -

I know that God is in us and we are in God; and all is of God.

I need to think more about Our Father and how we are to 'see Him' now and when we will be like Jesus Christ; and thank you for clarifying further.

George.

[Kat]

John 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

George, I really do think that phrase in that verse says it all, as everything that God wants us to know and have are in Christ Jesus. The Father produced of Himself the Son for us, and He encompasses all we will ever need. Yes there is still the Father, whom Christ declared is greater than Himself (John 10:29) and we shall surely gain a proper understanding of Him too.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

Hi George,

We know Christ became obedient through suffering so I'm only assuming by His suffering that His understanding took time.

I believe in all of God's creation all things start from the ground up so to speak.

Maybe I'm missing something?

For Christ to 'become' obedient implies He was not obedient at some time.

Hi Dennis,

I don't believe Jesus was disobedient as in wrong doing, but learned to obey God through His sufferings on a higher level while being in the flesh as a man I guess. 


Heb 5:8  But even though he was God's Son, he learned through his sufferings to be obedient.


(CEV)  Jesus is God's own Son, but still he had to suffer before he could learn what it really means to obey God.


(GW)  Although Jesus was the Son of God, he learned to be obedient through his sufferings.

[rick]

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

IMO, this proves Christ was never disobedient.

Hi Dennis,

Jesus was already resurrected when Heb 4:15 was written.

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you.

I agree that the Scripture you quoted does say it all; and All is through Jesus Christ.

Please let me try and state my 'see' question a little differently.

When we are Resurrected and have our Spiritual Bodies, will we be like Jesus Christ when He was Resurrected?

If yes, will we then be able to 'see' Our Father in the same way Jesus Christ 'sees' Our Father.

Curious George.

[Rene]

If yes, will we then be able to 'see' Our Father in the same way Jesus Christ 'sees' Our Father.

Hi George,

Here are two email replies from Ray on this subject:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13773.0.html

Jesus said: "When you see me you see THE FATHER."  The Father is God.  And so Jesus could have just as well said: "When you see Me YOU SEE GOD!"  Why not?  The "Father" IS God. How can we see God the Father (in the incarnation of Jesus) if the Father is not God?  So when we see God, we see the Father (but only through incarnation, seeing that the Father God is INVISIBLE SPIRIT).  And since the Father is God, when we see the Father in Christ, we see God in Christ, WE SEE GOD. That may be as close as we ever come to actually seeing God.  I will be covering this in more detail if I ever finish my paper:  "Solving the Enigma fo God."
God be with you,
Ray

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm

Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.

[Dennis Vogel]

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

IMO, this proves Christ was never disobedient.

Hi Dennis,

Jesus was already resurrected when Heb 4:15 was written.

So? Are you saying Jesus continued to be tempted after he was resurrected?