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Gay Weddings
lauriellen:
It seems to me that Jesus set the example for us to follow:
Luk 19:5 When Jesus came to that place, he looked up and said to Zacchaeus, "Hurry down, Zacchaeus, because I must stay in your house today."
Luk 19:6 Zacchaeus hurried down and welcomed him with great joy.
Luk 19:7 All the people who saw it started grumbling, "This man has gone as a guest to the home of a sinner!"
Luk 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
It seems pretty clear to me......
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: lauriellen on April 05, 2015, 10:03:25 AM ---It seems to me that Jesus set the example for us to follow:
Luk 19:5 When Jesus came to that place, he looked up and said to Zacchaeus, "Hurry down, Zacchaeus, because I must stay in your house today."
Luk 19:6 Zacchaeus hurried down and welcomed him with great joy.
Luk 19:7 All the people who saw it started grumbling, "This man has gone as a guest to the home of a sinner!"
Luk 7:39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
It seems pretty clear to me......
--- End quote ---
Hi Lauriellen,
These are great verses and thanks for sharing them. They certainly add perspective to the discussion.
I don't have a problem eating with sinners or being touched by sinners or any of what Jesus did. I bump into sinners everyday and I eat in the house of a sinner every day (my own house). This isn't the discussion here. None of the above involves me putting my stamp of approval upon the any sinful behavior by any of the sinners.
The discussion is partaking in a celebration for sinful behavior. Christ attended a marriage feast where he turned water into wine but would He have attended this same wedding feast to celebrate the bride and bridegroom's if they were gay? That's where my uncertainty lied originally in starting this whole thread.
John 2:1-2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Jesus spent a lot of time around sinners but He never celebrated their sins. In fact, He was constantly telling them to REPENT for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
If you read Mat 9:13, of which you quoted the previous two verses, Jesus says just that:
Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but SINNERS TO REPENTANCE.
So this is where I am at and I just don't see Jesus celebrating any sinful behavior, not even at the ceremony for the joining of two gay couples. Some people have stated they could attend a gay marriage without celebrating with those at the wedding but I suppose then it becomes a slippery slope. Ray said that marriage was one of the few things in this world that God made for us to observe PHYSICALLY and not spiritually. We don't spiritually marry other people and we don't get spiritual divorces. In the same way, your PHYSICAL PRESENCE says A LOT about what you think is OKAY in the eye's of God.
God bless,
Alex
octoberose:
Thank you for the thoughtful response Alex.
I was about to write something on the lines of by all means then, go off to Hugh Heffners mansion and eat with him during one of his parties. What's the difference? Lets just celebrate sin and violate I Corinthisns 13 that says Love does not rejoice in evil but in the truth.
But I do not have to say any of that because you said it much better and less emotionally.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Rick on April 05, 2015, 09:35:46 AM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on April 04, 2015, 06:46:17 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on April 04, 2015, 04:23:58 PM ---The bigger picture I see is that no matter who one caters to are catering to a sinner / sinners People lie, should we not sell them food ? People steal, should we not sell then cloths ?
I guess the difference is being either God centered or self righteous. But then again, its all of God anyways.
--- End quote ---
Rick,
Not to come off too harsh brother but if this is what you still think this whole thread is about then you've completely miss understood.
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
In your original question you asked ( is it wrong to attend a gay wedding ,to partake of it in anyway,) then you give an example of being a florist where a gay couple ask you to set up the flowers at their wedding
Are they asking you to sell them flowers or to join in on the celebration of the marriage or both ?
If they are asking you to sell them flowers only, that is your job according to your scenario an if its your job then do your job to the glory of God.
If they are asking you to join in on the celebration I will only recite your words back to you ( To re-iterate, I have no problem with gay people having marriage rights )
If you have no problem with gay people having marriage rights why would you have a problem setting up flowers for their wedding ? That is what you were asking right, is it wrong to attend or partake.
What I was saying is if one wishes to discriminate against one sin why not discriminate against all sins or do we show the lost sheep of God that we are hypocrites ?
Let he here who is without sin cast the first stone at the gay person the liar the thief the murderer etc, etc.
Love covers a multitude of sins Alex.
God bless.
--- End quote ---
Hey Rick,
I see you don't think there is a difference between "I have no problem with gay people having marriage rights" and attending a gay marriage.
Well let me tell you there is a BIG difference.
I don't think homosexuality is okay. It is a sin. The reason I don't have an issue with gay people having marriage rights is because I am not OF this world. I belong to the KINGDOM OF GOD and my CITIZENSHIP is in the heavens. You can't partake in the affairs of men and the affairs of God. A house divided amongst itself cannot stand and you cannot serve two masters. I am a sojourner in this world and this land. I don't partake in the political affairs of its people and nations. In that respect I don't have any issue.
If you also read the rest of what I wrote you would see I explained this previously by stating that God has a plan and He is going to execute it regardless of what my opinion on the matter is. What is deemed necessary must and will come to pass. God is wise and does not make mistakes. His ways are perfect.
I used the Flowers and the Florists as an example of the current issue that brought me to this question I posed and will ask again.
Is my PARTICIPATION in a CELEBRATION OF SINFUL BEHAVIOR acceptable in the eyes of God? I stated this in that same reply you quoted from. Please re-read it now with the understanding that celebrating a gay marriage by attending and participating in its idiosyncrasies is not the same thing as being okay with gay marriage rights as I just now explained to you.
By your post I'm sensing that you think there is no difference between "loving [AGAPE] your enemies" and celebrating their sinful behaviors.
There is a big difference between celebrating sinful behavior and loving the world [AGAPE]. We love the world not because we accept or condone or participate in its evil and sinful ways but BECAUSE we see what the world will be like one day when God has finally conformed every person into His image. That is worth loving and that is what God saw when He first commended His love towards us through His son.
God be with you,
Alex
Gina:
Hi everyone,
I've been reading your posts and replies. Yes, it's a very hypothetical question. My belief is this: If you have to ask, the answer is a big no. And, when in doubt, do nothing. Say nothing. The answer will come to you.
As for those who say that Jesus ate with publicans and sinners, true and the reason He did that was not to PARTY with them and celebrate THEM. Jesus came to SAVE SINNERS. I'm not perfect and I'm not that smart, and I've found myself in situations that I thought I could handle. But the truth of the matter is, I was somewhere where i had no business being.
I believe that when our relationship with Christ is on the level that it should be, yes, you may know and work with gays and lesbians but they would know you well enough to know that inviting you to their wedding would be akin to asking you to set aside your beliefs.
When Paul condemned sexual sin he didn't then say, but go hang out with them.
Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." (1 Cor. 15:33)
We all have problems and struggle with our sin. That is a good sign that your heart is inclined toward doing what is right.
And there are gays and lesbians here who read Ray's writings and one that I know of who is a member of this forum whose name I will not divulge. I'm not going to "out" him. He loves Ray. He struggles with his desires. So this is not a person who doesn't want to please God.
Isaiah says: I am the high and the lofty One, and I also dwell (eat and drink symbolically speaking) with the CONTRITE and LOWLY IN SPIRIT. (those who are feeling SORROW FOR THEIR OWN SINS AND SHORTCOMINGS)
THOSE are the kinds of people Jesus ate and drank with, for those are clearly UNclear on the matter.
Imagine Jesus or Paul being invited to a gay wedding and as if that weren't strange enough, then imagine them contemplating whether or not they should attend it.
Imagine Ray being invited to a gay wedding and attending.
So, tell me this: When your friends want to marry more than one person, or their pet and they invite you, will you scratch your heads and ask, Gee, what would Jesus do?
Jesus doesn't love US the way we are. He loves us from WHAT we are. Only the devil loves you the way you are. And if you're that worried about offending someone of that mindset and think, Well, if they invite me then I'll go because after all, I'm not supposed to judge them, then you are now guilty of loving mother, father, brother, sister, son / daughter and friends MORE than God and you cannot be His disciple.
I'm not saying hate these people who do those things. When Paul said, I don't judge those on the outside but on the inside, what he means is, he doesn't get ENTANGLED IN THE WORLD'S AFFAIRS. That's what he was saying. Why do you think he told the Corinthians to throw the man out who was sleeping with his father's wife? Because he didn't want them being entangled with anyone who was obviously still entangled in sin. Just throw him out. Don't kill him, don't murder him, don't call the police, just throw him out till he's had his fill of "pleasure," and when he sees he's for himself that he's wallowing in sin like pig and wants to come back, then let him come back, and drop the matter.
How do you separate yourself from those sins and then partake in the celebrating of them at the same time, huh? Paul didn't say you couldn't eat with gays and lesbians, etc., etc., did he? No, he didn't. He said you couldn't eat with anyone who calls themselves a Christian and does those things.
Now, how many gays and lesbians AFFIRM what they're doing and call themselves Christians? Many. (I'm not talking about the ones who are struggling and feeling contrite over their sins, believe me. There is a difference. And one gay/lesbian fleeting thought or fling does not a homosexual make, that's clear.)
We are all guilty as hell of ALL. But don't let your guilty conscience weaken you to the point that you feel pity for these people and go party with them in their sin. You may as well be going to celebrate a future train wreck! And what will your response be to them when God touches their eyes and THEY SEE their own sin? Will you say, Well, I was only trying to be nice. No, you were trying to not offend them.
Assuming your walk with Christ is so weak that you would be invited by gays and lesbians to celebrate their "marriage," all you have to say is: OH, boy! Look at the time. I really have to be CLEAN MY SHOWER!
Or, I'M SORRY BUT I'VE BEEN INVITED TO ANOTHER WEDDING THAT DAY.
Or, I'M SORRY BUT I HAVE TO GO SHOPPING THAT DAY.
If you are so WEAK in your faith that you feel you must GO BACK into the world to offer comfort to sinners who just LOVE to be comforted by you and to be told that what they're doing is not so bad, and that God loves them just the way they are, YOU misunderstand.
Paul said, that f-r-i-e-n-d-s-h-i-p (he didn't say you couldn't eat a meal with or do business) with the world is emnity with God (that is deep seated hatred). Remember, the Samaritan, as Ray aptly pointed out, took the man who was beat and robbed to a hospital and had THEM nurse the man back to health. The Samaritan didn't nurse him back to health. Doesn't say whether he became friends with him and started playing tennis with him or going to parties and all of that.
You might think you're strong enough and holy and righteous enough to be able to withstand the attacks of the adversary, but you don't even realize that the attacks from the adversary are coming at you wrapped up in a beautiful velvet rainbow colored glove, With "love."
You're naive.
When you up and go to a gay or lesbian wedding this is ultimately what you're affirming:
http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/17/dear-gay-community-your-kids-are-hurting/
God bless you all. I can't even believe that we have to have this discussion. There should have been no question about this issue.
Octoberose, thank you very much for your willingness to say what you said. I know you didn't mean to come off rude, and from my standpoint, you did not. We're in the same as you know. My daughter informed me a year ago that she was going to marry her girlfriend since her own adoptive grandfather had instructed her throughout her life to "not date bozos," which, to her meant date girls.
And for those who might misunderstand what I'm about personally: Nobody's telling gays and lesbians that they must become attracted to and marry the opposite sex. Nobody's telling you that that is what you must do. I certainly am not. But if the lifestyle were to be affirmed to the point of marriage, and if it doesn't harm anyone, then why oh why are so many doing Youtube videos about how they've abandoned their lifestyle and feeling sorrow for their choice, huh? These are beautiful people whom God loves and these are those whom Isaiah said He dwells with.
God bless. And please don't take offense at anything I've said here. It's all the truth and you know it.
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