Fined over 100k for not baking a wedding cake!

[lilitalienboi16]

This shop in oregan refused to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian couple and that cake has now turned into a whopping 100k+ dollar cake! Ouch!

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/04/306447-2-tough-weekend-controversial-christian-bakery-receives-135000-fine-gofundme-account-canceled/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_content=ijreview&utm_campaign=Life

Here is the interview with the couple who own the bakery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMffkPWVI6U

I know we had a long discussion in that previous thread (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16110.0.html) about providing services to gay couples and actually attending their weddings. Most of us agreed we could provide the service without issue as it doesn't require us to condone their behavior or participate in it but that attending their wedding and celebrating their union was crossing the line; However, these poor people are only standing on what they believe the Lord Jesus would do. They don't have the same understanding we do and we only do by the grace and mercy of God. Now they're going out of business, might lose their homes, and have been branded hate mongers.

Ironically I was reading Habakkuk the minor prophet yesterday night and I sort of thought of his words when thinking about this issue in our country and what is going on in the world around us.

Habakkuk 1

1 This is the message that came to the prophet Habakkuk in a vision from God:
2 O Lord, how long must I call for help before you will listen? I shout to you in vain; there is no answer. "Help! Murder!" I cry, but no one comes to save.
3 Must I forever see this sin and sadness all around me? Wherever I look I see oppression and bribery and men who love to argue and to fight.
4 The law is not enforced, and there is no justice given in the courts, for the wicked far outnumber the righteous, and bribes and trickery prevail.
5 The Lord replied: "Look, and be amazed! You will be astounded at what I am about to do! For I am going to do something in your own lifetime that you will have to see to believe.
6 I am raising a new force on the world scene, the Chaldeans,[a] a cruel and violent nation who will march across the world and conquer it.
7 They are notorious for their cruelty. They do as they like, and no one can interfere.
8 Their horses are swifter than leopards. They are a fierce people, more fierce than wolves at dusk. Their cavalry move proudly forward from a distant land; like eagles they come swooping down to pounce upon their prey.
9 All opposition melts away before the terror of their presence. They collect captives like sand.
10 "They scoff at kings and princes and scorn their forts. They simply heap up dirt against their walls and capture them!
11 They sweep past like wind and are gone, but their guilt is deep, for they claim their power is from their gods."
12 O Lord my God, my Holy One, you who are from aforetime—is your plan in all of this to wipe us out? Surely not! O God our Rock, you have decreed the rise of these Chaldeans to chasten and correct us for our awful sins.
13 We are wicked, but they far more! Will you, who cannot allow sin in any form, stand idly by while they swallow us up? Should you be silent while the wicked destroy those who are better than they?
14 Are we but fish, to be caught and killed? Are we but creeping things that have no leader to defend them from their foes?
15 Must we be strung up on their hooks and dragged out in their nets, while they rejoice?
16 Then they will worship their nets and burn incense before them! "These are the gods who make us rich," they'll say.
17 Will you let them get away with this forever? Will they succeed continually in their heartless wars?

These types of issues appear to be becoming more and more commonplace. Lord only knows where it will end.

God bless,
Alex

[rick]

Hello Alex,

Try to imagine a Jewish baker being approached by modern day Nazis that want him to bake a cake celebrating the holocaust, I guess he would be fined one million dollars if he refused.

We live in a perverse country these days and although I am an American citizen living in America my profound hope is that God does pass judgement on this county and its politicians that write these ridiculous laws they shove down our throats.

America, number one baby killer of the world.   

[indianabob]

Hi Rick,

It would seem that God has already passed judgment. Now we are waiting for the execution of judgement that will surely come on this and all nations
.
As believing Christians we need to have a forgiving attitude toward the repented sins of others, but we also can accept that justice is in the future of any who haven't yet repented.

Some day we will be administering justice and then it will be as members of the body of Christ and it will be righteous. For now we need only put our trust in God that all things will proceed as they should for the benefit of mankind and the glory of God.

I-bob

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello Alex,

Try to imagine a Jewish baker being approached by modern day Nazis that want him to bake a cake celebrating the holocaust, I guess he would be fined one million dollars if he refused.

We live in a perverse country these days and although I am an American citizen living in America my profound hope is that God does pass judgement on this county and its politicians that write these ridiculous laws they shove down our throats.

America, number one baby killer of the world.   

Hi Rick,

To add to what Ol Bob said, Ray did seem to believe that judgment was upon America and that the two towers was God's warning of to repent.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------http://bible-truths.com/towers.htm

Make no mistake about it: There will be hell to pay in the years ahead. Our sins have reached to high heaven, and our leaders fiddle while our great spiritual leaders "speak unto us SMOOTH things and prophesy DECEIT" in our darkest hours and in our greatest need to repent and turn to God. I don't apologize for how that sounds to many of you, but not to all, I hope.

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I am by no means a prophet or as spiritual learned as I pray and beg God to be but it seems to me that this judgement is surely coming and it is very near for this country and the world.

God will keep us. We all trust in the Almighty and He is our refuge. He will never cause us to be ashamed, those who are called by His name. He will never let our enemies say, "Look, they have trusted in their God, and now, where is their God?" Not for our righteousness but because of His mercies and for His glory.

God bless,
Alex

[lareli]

Alex you said..

"To add to what Ol Bob said, Ray did seem to believe that judgment was upon America and that the two towers was God's warning of to repent."


What is God wanting us to repent of? I don't remember if Ray covered this in the towers paper.

[lilitalienboi16]

Alex you said..

"To add to what Ol Bob said, Ray did seem to believe that judgment was upon America and that the two towers was God's warning of to repent."


What is God wanting us to repent of? I don't remember if Ray covered this in the towers paper.

Read my post above, I quoted where ray said this nation needed to repent. If you're asking what specifically ray said this nation needed to repent of, I don't know if he did. He did say;

"There was a time when there was more right with America than there was wrong with America, but that can no longer honestly be said.  I love this country, and my roots here are as deep as anyone's. On my great grandmother's side, Joris Jansen De Rapalje and Catelyntje Jeronimus Trico De Ralphaje are my great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather and grandmother."

God always brought judgment upon His people because they failed to repent time after time despite His many warnings. Now God has warned this nation that was once a "Christian nation," a nation called by His name,  to repent but we continue to spiral deeper into apostasy.

Maybe its just as Isaiah said;

Isaiah 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

Nevertheless, things are going exactly as God has planned so all we can do is trust in Him and by His grace and mercy walk after Him.

[lareli]

Yes I see where Ray said that we are being judged and warned but I was asking what specifically we are being judged for.. I know a lot of Christians will say were being judged for our treatment and acceptance of homosexuality, abortion, etc. just didn't know if Ray ever said what, exactly, we should be repenting of.

[lareli]

Ray spent a lot of time, energy, and effort in writing a paper showing us that America is being judged/warned and that there's going to be hell to pay if we don't repent. He put a picture to this paper and put it at the top of the home screen for every visitor to see. It's the only one of his papers with a picture on the home page. Seems to me he really wanted to make sure everyone read this paper.. He showed in great detail why he believes America is being judged/warned and needs to repent.. But he never said what America needs to repent of.

[lilitalienboi16]

Yes I see where Ray said that we are being judged and warned but I was asking what specifically we are being judged for.. I know a lot of Christians will say were being judged for our treatment and acceptance of homosexuality, abortion, etc. just didn't know if Ray ever said what, exactly, we should be repenting of.

Yea I don't think ray ever made specifics. I don't think we have to.  Everywhere we turn there is injustice, violence, greed, thievery, hypocrisy, lies, lovers of self, etc... I see it everywhere. I turn on the news and its all over the place. It appears to be rampant... that's why I wrote in my original post that the prophecy of Habuk was as if I was reading a prophecy directed right at our country and for our time. He might as well have been talking to America. I think the Christians are just as guilty though. After all, it was God's people that had provoked Him to anger, not the pagans though they got their due recompense as well. We also know that satan's throne is in the church so it is certainly not without blame but we, as God has called and chosen, have come out of Babylon so as not to be partakers of her plagues. I think as long as we obey God and throw ourselves at His mercy when we sin that He is faithful and will keep us. Remember when Elisha cried to God that Israel had killed His prophets and destroyed His alters, God responded by telling him that He had reserved a remnant. Paul even affirms this.

Romans 11
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

1 Kings 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

1 Peter
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So there is nothing to fear. If God is for us, who can be against us?

God bless,
Alex

[lilitalienboi16]

This might help in understanding repentance. It might have the answers you're looking for;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

God bless,
Alex

[lareli]

Hello Alex,

Try to imagine a Jewish baker being approached by modern day Nazis that want him to bake a cake celebrating the holocaust, I guess he would be fined one million dollars if he refused.

We live in a perverse country these days and although I am an American citizen living in America my profound hope is that God does pass judgement on this county and its politicians that write these ridiculous laws they shove down our throats.

America, number one baby killer of the world.   

Rick,

You're comparing a gay couple with nazis? And a gay wedding to the holocaust?

[rick]

Hello Alex,

Try to imagine a Jewish baker being approached by modern day Nazis that want him to bake a cake celebrating the holocaust, I guess he would be fined one million dollars if he refused.

We live in a perverse country these days and although I am an American citizen living in America my profound hope is that God does pass judgement on this county and its politicians that write these ridiculous laws they shove down our throats.

America, number one baby killer of the world.   

Rick,

You're comparing a gay couple with nazis? And a gay wedding to the holocaust?

Hello Largeli,

I realize I'm comparing one with the other but its all the same because people are being force to go against their conscious.

All these things we hear about on the news are not isolated issues as far as I can see, its all apart of a bigger agenda.

Take the gay agenda, where do you think it might lead to ? So, John loves Joe, John and Joe feel they should have the right to be marry, if John and Joe cannot get married that is discrimination as far as they are concerned.........correct.

Now, lets see what's coming down the pike ok, John loves Joe's sister and wants to marry her but Joe also loves his sister and wants to marry his sister but if Joe cannot marry his sister then Joe is being discrimination against correct.

Now let me make this absolutely clear, I am not advocating hatred or violence towards gay people or anyone else who lives not according to God's ways but God's words are quite clear when He says it's a shameful thing for a man to lay with another man or women with another women.

I don't know how anyone can believe in God and not discriminate, one must decide to agree with God or disagree with God , if God says no to something or its wrong to do a certain thing  then I must discriminate between one or the other .correct

The only thing that makes being gay wrong is that God says its wrong, end of story. 

[indianabob]

Taking sides or discriminating FOR God's ways of life has never been popular or easy.
The Lord Jesus did say that he was NOT bringing peace, but a sword of separation.

To people of natural selfish desire, a person preaching obedience to God is the enemy.

We didn't make ourselves their enemy...however they did or do make themselves our enemy.
There is no getting around it. If we follow God's ways we cannot be "of the world".
And yet we are still IN the world and must expect to be reviled by almost everyone who is not part of us. It is that condition of holy life that will purge us of the chaff in our own lives.

1 Peter 2:19
For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

[lareli]

Rick. After all the gays round up all the Christians and put them in concentration camps and gas them and burn them in ovens and starve them to death.. And then years later these gays come asking a Christian baker to bake them a cake so they can celebrate the time when they murdered 6 million Christians... Then you will be correct in saying it's the same.

Ibob..
Didn't our God tell us how to be in the world with our enemies without being of the world? Didn't He say.. If our enemy (a gay person) strikes us on the cheek we should offer the other also, and if our enemy (a gay person) wants our jacket we should give him our shirt too, and if our enemy (a gay person) wants us to go one mile we should go two?

Do we suppose that baking a cake for our enemy is where God draws the line? So we should let a gay person slap us and not only that, but after they slap us we should offer the other cheek, we should give him or her the shirt off our back, but whatever you do, DONT bake them a cake.

Hey guys let's also not forget that God said it shall be an abominable thing to us to eat shell fish. And then later said that it's okay as long as you give thanks, yes?

There's too many thou shalts and thou shall nots for my little pea brain to keep track of.. Maybe that's why Christ said all the laws, all the thou shalts and thou shall nots can be summed up with, love your God and love your neighbor as yourself. Im inclined to believe there are lots of gay couples who do not see how marrying their gay lover is violating this law of Christ which sums up all laws. You or I may see it as a violation.. But what business is it of mine what my neighbor does with his life? Just because he wants me to bake him a cake doesn't all of the sudden make his lifestyle my business. My business ends at baking the cake. Why should I judge the servant of another? Hes not my servant and I am not his god or master. To his own master will he rise or fall.

[lilitalienboi16]

Rick. After all the gays round up all the Christians and put them in concentration camps and gas them and burn them in ovens and starve them to death.. And then years later these gays come asking a Christian baker to bake them a cake so they can celebrate the time when they murdered 6 million Christians... Then you will be correct in saying it's the same.

Ibob..
Didn't our God tell us how to be in the world with our enemies without being of the world? Didn't He say.. If our enemy (a gay person) strikes us on the cheek we should offer the other also, and if our enemy (a gay person) wants our jacket we should give him our shirt too, and if our enemy (a gay person) wants us to go one mile we should go two?

Do we suppose that baking a cake for our enemy is where God draws the line? So we should let a gay person slap us and not only that, but after they slap us we should offer the other cheek, we should give him or her the shirt off our back, but whatever you do, DONT bake them a cake.

Hey guys let's also not forget that God said its abominable thing in Gods eyes to eat shell fish. And then later said that it's okay as long as you give thanks, yes?

There's too many thou shalts and thou shall nots for my little pea brain to keep track of.. Maybe that's why Christ said all the laws, all the thou shalts and thou shall nots can be summed up with, love your God and love your neighbor as yourself. Im inclined to believe there are lots of gay couples who do not see how marrying their gay lover is violating this law of Christ which sums up all laws. You or I may see it as a violation.. But what business is it of mine what my neighbor does with his life? Just because he wants me to bake him a cake doesn't all of the sudden make his lifestyle my business. My business ends at baking the cake. Why should I judge the servant of another? Hes not my servant and I am not his god or master. To his own master will he rise or fall.

Hi Largeli,

You can't really use the excuse that there are many "thou shalts" as a reason to not see homosexuality for what it is. An abomination to God.

Christ blotted out the handwriting ordinance on the cross which was contrary to us. The "thou shalt not eat shell fish," etc... commandments. So no, he didn't really say, "thou shalt not eat" and then "well its okay as long as you bless it." The handwriting ordinances served a purpose for the wandering Jews as they travelled from one land to another.

Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and too it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

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Dear Andrew:

My paper on homosexuality being a sin was not based on Leviticus
of the Old Testament Law, but mostly on Romans 1 of the New Testament.  And in
Rom. 1 and other places in the New Testament that I referenced and went into great
detail, homosexuality is most certainly a gross sin.  Arguing over shell fish will hardly
justify acts of homosexuality.  My paper covers the subject more thoroughly than any
book ever written on the subject as far as I am concerned. There is NOTHING that
can be Scripturally brought up against my paper, because my paper is based on
the Scriptures for New Testament Believers.

God be with you,

Ray

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Homosexuality is still very much a sin and condemned in the new testatement.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators [Gk: paramours], nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [Gk: catamites], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: sodomites] nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

sodomites (King James, 'abusers of themselves with mankind'-Strong's #733 arsenokoites "a sodomite, defile self with mankind."

The elements of the Greek word arsenokoites are "male-lier"-A male who lies with a male. "Male bed partners"--Wycliffe Bible Dictionary

Be not deceived, neither ...effeminate [Gk: malakos-catamite/boy with man sex] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold [back] the truth in unrighteousness... Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves... For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which is meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them" (Rom. 1:18, 24, 26-32).

Christian homosexuals who don't see the sin in marrying one another don't see it because they don't want to see it.

Matthew 19:3-6
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

A man leaves his parents and cleaves to HIS WIFE, NOT his husband. It was decreed by God to be this way from the beginning.

"Nevertheless, to avoid fornication [Gk: porneia], let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband" (I Cor. 7:2).

Not really any room in there for every man having his own husband or every woman having her own wife to avoid fornicating.

Ray covers this and much more in his paper (http://bible-truths.com/homosex.htm).

If you love God then you will desire to obey Him. Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say?

"Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are His. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity" (II Tim. 2:19). 

We all have our sins we struggle with and only God can save. But let us be honest amongst ourselves and with ourselves about sin. It is something that we strive to overcome and not something we celebrate or make excuses for.

You can still Agape your enemies/neighbors without making excuses or justifications for their sin.

I agree that our business ends with them at baking the cake.

God bless,
Alex

[lareli]

I wasn't familiar with what you meant by 'handwriting ordinances' so I did a quick search and found the following...

Links are not allowed if a site or article brings its own teaching or preaching.  Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc.

A common mistake made by homosexual proponents when discussing the Old Testament, in particular Leviticus, is the failure to understand the three main divisions of the Law:  civil, ceremonial, and moral.  This is important because the civil and ceremonial law are not in effect now, but the moral law is.  Let's take a look at these divisions within the book of Leviticus since it is the book under examination.

   Civil - Expired with the demise of the Jewish civil government
Justice practices (Lev. 24:17-23)
Law of property redemption (Lev. 25)
Be just with the poor, (Lev. 19:15)
Do not hate in your heart (Lev. 19:17)
Retain just scales in commerce (Lev. 19:35f)
Robbery, extortion, false witness, and restitution (Lev. 6:1-7)

   Ceremonial - Expired with the fulfillment of priestly work of Christ (Matt. 3:15)
Various sacrificial offerings for sin (Lev. 1,2,3,4,5,6)
Priestly duties (Lev. 7:1-37)
Laws on animals for food (Lev. 11:1-47)
Cleaning house of leper (Lev. 14:33-57)
Law of Atonement (Lev. 16:1-28;17:1-16)
Regulations for Priests (Lev. 21,22)
Festivals (Lev. 23:1-25)
   
   Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character.  "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy," (Lev. 19:2)
Do not steal or lie (Lev. 19:11)
Do not oppress your neighbor (Lev. 19:13)
No idolatry (Lev. 26:1-13)
Don't sacrifice children to Molech (Lev. 20:1-5)
Don't commit adultery, incest, bestiality, homosexuality, etc. (Lev. 20:9-21)
You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Lev. 19:18)

Homosexuality is under the moral law category.  In addition, as stated earlier, it is an abomination practiced by all people (Egypt and Canaan), not just the Israelites.  Therefore, we see that the moral aspects of the Law are still in effect, but not the civil or ceremonial.  Again, there were things addressed to Israel only where God said "speak to the sons of Israel saying..."  These things included atonement for unintentional sins, eating habits, uncleanness, feast days, rest days, etc., which do not apply for us today.
------------------------------------

Is this what you were talking about?

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Largely,

I havn't looked at carm.org and I know they teach many heresies and blasphemies so I am hesitant to look to them for anything. With what you shared, I will give you how I understand it as ray put it;

---------------------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5813.msg47165.html#msg47165

COMMENT:  Oh really?  "The LAW was nailed to the cross," was it?  And do you have chapter and verse on that bit of unscriptural nonsense  Col 2:14 "Blotting out THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."  God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross.  The Covenant Law which IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was not a "handwriting of ordinances," but was rather chiseled IN STONE, and was placed IN the ark of the Covenant, not on the OUTSIDE of the ark as were the ordinances.  You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.

  COMMENT:  Oh really?  The law "stirs up the passions of the flesh" to sin, does it?  If you are going to allude to Scripture, do it properly:  Rom 7:7--" What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. "
     
    So is it "THE LAW" that stirs up the passions of our flesh" to sin?  Is that what Paul said? Is that what the Scriptures teach?  No.  Is therefore the law sin?  NO.  Well, what was it then that "stirred up the passions of Paul's flesh" when he had not repented of breaking God's law?  Let's read it:  "But S-I-N [not the law], taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence."  SIN did that, not the law. The law merely pointed out just how bad Paul lusted without the Spirit of God in him (Rom. 8:9).


    COMMENT:  Are you so foolish to think that anyone will every be saved without first being JUDGED?
    Judgment is NOW upon the House of God (I Pet. 4:17).  EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE JUDGED, either now (I Cor. 3:13-15) or later (Rev. 20:13-15).  Neither now (I Cor. 11:31) or later (I Cor. 11:32).
    All unrepented of homosexual acts will be severely judged, and they will be judged by THAT MAN, Whom you think you can flaunt your sins at and not suffer the consequences:  Heb 10:26-7--" For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

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Ten Commandments is the old Covenant.

Deuteronomy 4:13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

Deuteronomy 9:9 When I went up on the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord had made with you, I stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water.

Deuteronomy 9:11 At the end of the forty days and forty nights, the Lord gave me the two stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant.

God made a new one with us in which the laws were not written on stone tablets but upon our hearts.

"For finding fault with them, He says, Behold, the days come says the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah [he is a JEW who is circumcised in his heart and spirit, Rom. 2:29]: NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT that I made with their fathers..." (Heb. 8:8-9).

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

By this our righteousness is to exceed that of the pharisees because the law was/is spiritual (Romans 7:14)  but it could not be kept without Christ (See 10th commandment).

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

What was hate your enemies (and don't murder!) to the jews because they could not see the law as being spiritual became love [agape] your enemies. It goes beyond the outward physical appearance and straight to the heart of man. Hence while the pharisees appeared outwardly righteous by not breaking the ten commandments (Because only God knows the heart and whether you are 'coveting') they were inwardly dead and their righteousness but filthy rags.

Philippians 3:5-8 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

So Christ did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

The law is spiritual and can only be kept in Christ, love is the fulfillment of the law.

Luke 10:26-28 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:9-10 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

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   It is not wrong to study the "Law" portions of Scripture. If, however, you think that you need to "keep" the law as ancient Israel attempted to do, you will accomplish very little. The reason for this is because "The LAW IS SPIRITUAL....." (Rom. 7:14).  ONLY  "Christ is the end [the goal, result, purpose, conclusion] of the law for righteousness in every one that believes" (Rom. 10:4). NO orthodox Jew can keep the law of God WITHOUT CHRIST! This is a lesson they will yet have to learn in Judgment.

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So in conclusion now, I believe, the hand writing ordinances, those things that are elementary which were contrary to us and not written on the stone tablets is everything else that is not the ten commandments--The old covenant. These things were completely done away with and all that remains now are the covenents (The old one is waxing away) which is the law written upon our hearts which could only ever be kept in Christ and through love. For God is love. Thus Christ has fulfilled the law.

2 Corinthians 3:5-14
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Hope that makes sense... I'm sorry I didn't take all the time to flesh out everything carm had to say. I'm still coming to grips with all this, its alot to digest and its the best I understand it right now.

Let me know if anything is confusing or unclear.

God bless,
Alex