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Author Topic: Saving Private Ryan  (Read 7648 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Saving Private Ryan
« on: May 25, 2015, 06:19:47 PM »

Makes a grown man cry. War is so ugly. Please come soon Jesus. Please. Your creation desperately needs you. So much sadness and sorrow in this world. So much evil and hate.

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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

indianabob

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2015, 07:45:22 PM »

Saw that film. modern 1940's warfare, but same as has been for 6000 years plus.
Come Lord and heal us all.
I-Bob
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rick

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 09:08:15 PM »

I agree with your analysis and would like to add war is pure unadulterated evil of all. Another sad thing also is how much money some people make as a result of war.

In order to discus war you would need to get highly political because war is politics at the cost of human beings lives. It also tells us just how depraved the human heart is.  >:(   
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Kat

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2015, 10:27:08 PM »

It also tells us just how depraved the human heart is.  >:(

I tend to think this is a fundamental point that is being taught to this human race in this age... therefore we will continue to have wars and all these 'depraved' actions by mankind through every single generation, until Christ returns. I recently saw where Ray had said this at the conference 'What is the gospel of the kingdom.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.msg50216.html#msg50216

Rom 8:22  And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.

The whole world. If you have any doubts about that, just turn on the evening news. If itís not the weather; the hurricanes, the earthquakes, then itís wars and terrorist. Now they are burning down Paris, for eight days straight. This is always been the condition of the world. They say the history of mankind is a chronicle of wars. Man is either in war, coming out of war or preparing for the next war.
-----------------------------

I feel every generation of elect have looked at the terrible world around them and hoped and prayed that Christ would return in their lifetime to rescue His creation... I also hope and pray it is soon, very soon.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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lareli

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2015, 11:54:08 PM »

The Lord is a warrior. He trains my hands for war.
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rick

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2015, 02:21:34 AM »

The Lord is a warrior. He trains my hands for war.

Hi Largeli,

Yes, Christ is a warrior indeed but let us never forget Christ is a righteous warrior unlike man is, huge difference . Also when God kills He also has power to resurrect but man has no power to resurrect even and ant.

One should never put Christ on the same level as man even though He was a man He was also the God man as in the Son of God, the first born of all creation.

Christ is from above we are from below, we are of the earth Christ is not. Amen brother, Christ has no sin in Him at all but warring man does, make no mistake about that. ;)
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lareli

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2015, 01:10:31 PM »

"He trains my hands for war" did Christ say this or did man..



1 Sam 15

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants,"


Infants.






« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 01:16:59 PM by largeli »
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lareli

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2015, 01:15:02 PM »

Alex if you think a Hollywood portrayal of WWII is bad.. Just wait brother. God has promised much worse. Worse than ever has been or will ever be again.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2015, 02:15:21 PM »

"He trains my hands for war" did Christ say this or did man..



1 Sam 15

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants,"


Infants.

Hi Largeli,

I think you are misguided if you are justifying war and killing.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. No verse is at all becoming its own interpretation.

Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

We are under a new covenent now. You can't use the old to justify things anymore. Its waxing old and ready to vanish away.

Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 4:1-5
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are THE TWO COVENENTS; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth TO BONDAGE, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The new covenent is far above the old. Your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees to enter the kingdom of heaven. Paul was blameless as far as the rightoeusness that was in the law yet he called himself the worst sinner that ever was or ever will be. The only way to exceed the righteousness of the pharisees who kept the law outwardly is to be in Christ because Christ is the fullfillment of the law. The law was and is spiritual but the veil was over the eyes and so this could not be seen until the veil was torn.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Romans 8: 1-6
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

The new covenent requires us to love ['AGAPE'] our enemies and feed them when they are hungry. We are to overcome evil with good. Turn the other cheek. Etc...

Romans 12:19-21
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Luke 6:26-35
26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:10 Love [Gk: 'AGAPE'] worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [GK: 'AGAPE'] is the fulfilling of the law.

Our warefare is no longer carnal, we are being trained in a spiritual battle fighting wickedness in high places. SPIRITUAL is our warfare.

2 Corinthians 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do NOT war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So only God who is the righteous judge is justified in killing because He also makes alive. Veangence is His and He will repay. As for you, follow Christ.

James 4:12 There is ONE lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: SHALL NOT THE JUDGE OF ALL THE EARTH DO RIGHT?

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

We fight daily the greatest battle ever fought by man. As ray said, being saved may very well be the hardest thing any human being does.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 02:31:15 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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lareli

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2015, 02:32:53 PM »

I'm not justifying war and killing. I hate war. I'm not the one who commanded people to slaughter infants. God commanded it. When stories came out about Isis (in the name of their god) slaughtering babies in Iraq this year I heard Christians say that no god would ever command something like that.. They're wrong.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 02:39:24 PM by largeli »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2015, 02:38:05 PM »

I'm not trying to justify war. I hate war.

Alright Largeli, no problem! Well perhaps someone else will benefit from the post.

God bless,
Alex
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lareli

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 02:45:55 PM »

Modified the last post.. Please, your comments are appreciated
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 03:27:50 PM »

Modified the last post.. Please, your comments are appreciated

Well I think you're having a problem with God's sovereignty if it bothers you that He ordered the killing of children.

Romans 9:11-23
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Remember how God handled sodom?

Genesis 18:18-33
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will NOT destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Not even ten righteouss people in the whole city. Only Lot was spared. Why?

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isaiah 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

God doesn't sin or tempt. He does everything for the ultimate good of His creation. There is no shadow of turning in Him. He is just.

Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

What did God tell Job when Job was decrying God as unjust?

Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

OH and it continues....

Since God has made us of His race and gives life, does He also have the right to judge and kill? I guess you have to wrestle with the idea of whether you are okay with God being sovereign.

God bless,
Alex
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 01:38:29 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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lareli

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 05:20:13 PM »

God is sovereign. I don't have a problem with God or anything about His plan. I worship God. I never said He was unjust.

You used Sodom as an example. It's not the same. Who destroyed Sodom.. God. Did God command man to destroy Sodom? No. He didn't use people to do it at all. Do you see how that is not the same as commanding man to slaughter infants? Not unborn children who know nothing of good and evil... Infants.


It's interesting that you can be brought to tears and decry the ugliness of war from watching "Saving Private Ryan"... Yet if I bring up how God commanded man to rip babies from their mothers arms and slaughter them than I have a problem with God.






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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2015, 05:58:49 PM »

God is sovereign. I don't have a problem with God or anything about His plan. I worship God. I never said He was unjust.

You used Sodom as an example. It's not the same. Who destroyed Sodom.. God. Did God command man to destroy Sodom? No. He didn't use people to do it at all. Do you see how that is not the same as commanding man to slaughter infants? Not unborn children who know nothing of good and evil... Infants.


It's interesting that you can be brought to tears and decry the ugliness of war from watching "Saving Private Ryan"... Yet if I bring up how God commanded man to rip babies from their mothers arms and slaughter them than I have a problem with God.

Hi Largeli,

I'm not sure I understand what has you upset. Are you saying that God is not the cause of both Sodom and the Amelek destruction?

What does unborn children knowing nothing of good and evil have to do with what happened? How can you kill something that isn't yet living?

Adam and Eve knew nothing of good and evil yet Eve comitted every sin in the world before she ever got that knowledge. Does God need to wait and see what man is going to do before He is justfied in pronouncing judgement? Did He not declare the end from the beginning?

Jesus wept when Lazurus died yet Jesus knew that He was very soon about to bring His friend back to life. Would you mock Jesus too for crying?

The death of God's saints are precious in His eyes yet He still kills them. Would you mock Him for grieving the deaths He has caused?

I just don't see the point of your post here.

In Christ,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2015, 06:06:40 PM »

I should add that I never said you have a problem with God. Here is what I started my post with.

Quote
"Well I think you're having a problem with God's sovereignty IF it bothers you that He ordered the killing of children."

You asked me to comment. I did. If you don't have a problem with that then my post may benefit someone else who struggles to understand the sovereignty of God and let it be that.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lareli

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2015, 06:22:04 PM »

You keep assuming. I'm not upset. Nor do I have a problem with God. You started a thread lamenting the ugliness of war. Others commented in like with your post. 'War is evil' and 'War is the depravity of man' 'God is trying to teach us how depraved we are' so on and so forth... I don't disagree with those comments but in an effort to broaden perspective I  pointed out that God is a warrior. He trains my hands for war. He commanded babies to be slaughtered... Ripped to pieces, blood, guts, screaming in pain...


How is it you can shed a tear for men who died in war but not infants ripped to pieces? I think it's interesting.
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lareli

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2015, 06:29:16 PM »

No you did not say flat out 'Largeli you have a problem with God' but you did make an assumption and proceeded to respond based on that assumption. It does not offend me. But I will point it out to avoid any further assumptions or confusion.
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Iím just what you made God.. ~Kid Cudi

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2015, 07:30:59 PM »

The character I most identified with was probably the clerk (the corporal?) who was drafted into the mission just because he was handy and could speak the language. 

Every narrative has a POV--and I mean that in the literary sense, not in the 'popular' sense.  There wasn't a man on either side who didn't think he was either 1. doing the right thing or 2.  a victim of circumstance.  That's pretty much the 'way of the world', I think.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Extol

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Re: Saving Private Ryan
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2015, 10:29:26 AM »

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

TRUTH NUMBER 8

    [A] "Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for OUR ADMONITION [to reprove, caution, warn, remind of obligation or duty, etc.], upon whom the ends of the world [Ďeonsóagesí] are come" (I Cor. 10:11).

    "Now these things were OUR EXAMPLES, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" (I Cor. 10:6).

    [C] "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for OUR LEARNINGÖ" (Rom. 15:4).

It is essential that we study the Old Testament Scriptures, for they are often the only key to the New Testament Scriptures. Paul used the Hebrew Scriptures to teach the foolish Galatians the New Covenant promises. Hereís but one great example:

    "Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not HEAR the law? For it is written [in Old Covenant Scriptures] that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the FLESH; but he of the freewoman was by PROMISE. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders [gives birth] to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar IS mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

    "But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which IS the mother of us all.

    For it is written, ĎRejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

    "Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free." (Gal. 4:21-31).

This is not only an allegory, but it is an allegory containing many metaphors as well. An allegory is when characters or events (such as Sarah and Agar and their children) represent abstract or spiritual ideas or principles. A metaphor is when one thing is said to be something else. (such as Agar actually being mount Sinai, which then represents or corresponds to Jerusalem in bondage). It may seem a little complicated at first, but once one sees all of the aspects of the allegory explained, this principle is quite easy to understand. Nevertheless, it does require the Spirit of God to believe it. It is this very fact (that the Church does not understand or believe this allegory) that the Church continues to believe that Godís true chosen people are STILL, "the children of the bondwoman"ó"Jerusalem which NOW IS" over there in the State of Israel. Unbelievable.


Largeli,

 The story of Sarah and Hagar is only one example from the Old Testament, but I like to view the whole thing as an allegory. First the physical and then the spiritual. I hate violence, I hate war, I hate even minor confrontations, so it's hard for me to read the Old Testament violence---unless I'm looking at the spiritual aspect of it. So when I read a passage like the one below, I ask myself: what spiritual lesson is there here?

Deuteronomy 7--1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nationsóthe Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than youó 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORDís anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

These nations have all been long dead, and a literal interpretation of this is of little value to us. But an allegoric interpretation can be very useful. The native peoples of Canaan turned to dust long ago, but I have my own Hittites and Girgashites and Amorites to overcome, and they are alive and well. Like the physical ones were greater than Israel, my spiritual ones are "larger and stronger" than me. It's hard not to make treaties with and intermarry with the Hivites and Jebusites in my life. I've been doing it for 30 years. But even so, I live in hope, for I believe that God "has chosen us out of all the peoples on the face of the earth", and I can gladly look forward to the day when God will deliver my enemies unto me, and "destroy them totally". Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50), so I want God to destroy all the flesh in me, even the infants and sheep and cattle. 
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