> General Discussions
Three statements Christ made got me thinking, what in the world is going on.
lilitalienboi16:
I am well aware of the name of Jesus' Father but that does not change the fact that any reference in the old testament to Jehova/Yahweh is a reference to Jesus Christ. Any reference to Jehova/Elohim is one which includes the Father too because He is Elohim. While everything is out of the Father and through Christ, it does not give us a right to throw that distinction out the window. Its like saying that "Immortality" means we live forever so then "Immortality" means "Eternal life!" WRONG! It does NOT mean that and neither does Jehova/Yahweh (without the Elohim) mean the Father is being spoken of.
I did not mention that God has a God in the old testatement, the SCRIPTURES do. Here again incase you've forgotten them already.
Psalm 45:5-7
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hebrews 1:6-10
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
I must admit I am a bit astounded that you will ignore scripture and Ray's words on this matter. I can understand disagreeing with Ray, he is a man, but to disagree with scripture too? I simply can't go down that road with you. The above are very strong witnesses against your teaching and you have done nothing to address them. I have examined it carefully.
Lastly, you should provide your scriptural references to Jesus being a Man forever. I know that we know Him no longer after the flesh so I have a hard time seeing Him as a man. He has the "form" of a man but that is not the same thing as saying He is a man. Man is flesh and blood and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.
lilitalienboi16:
Not that I think what ray says will matter but I'll leave it here for anyone elses lurking through this discussion so at least they know where ray stand's on Jesus having a God discussion. This is taken from the same 07 conference I linked in my prior posts.
------------------------------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
1Tim 6:15 “which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
v. 16 who only hath immortality…”
I always thought that was speaking about Christ. But I’m thinking now, no, He’s talking about God. God only has immortality;
v. 16 “… dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see…”
Isn’t this talking about God, the Father? Well what does it matter?
Well here’s the thing. Where does it say if somebody is able to have the title God, that you have to be eternal for that? I don’t know of any.
There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He can’t die. But we are talking about a time when God ‘only’ had immortality. Where did Christ say He got His life? He got it from the Father (John 5:26).
But you always want to think about these things. Someone will say, ‘well that’s talking about His human flesh, you know human.’ No, I think these things are dual. These things pertain to Him ‘before’ His human flesh. You know He talked about the glories and stuff He had before (John 17:5). Did He have a glory as a human? He prayed for the glory He ‘once’ had, so did He not have any glory then? Well, He did have glory. We read that in flesh and blood He did have glory.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
He didn’t have the glory that He had though. I mean it was much more, it was much grander. He didn’t have all that glory, because He diminished Himself. We are coming to that very powerful scripture.
[Someone's comment: Scripture says, “My Father is greater than I.”] Some say, ‘well yea He says that, because He was still in the flesh.’ They say, 'well yea if He’s in the flesh.' But then we have something that I discovered, I never heard anyone else say it. Jesus had a God! It’s right there. After His resurrection, He had a God (John 20:17).
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
So you think the Father had a God? Come on. Somebody will say, ‘well how could you be God and you have a God, you are lesser than God, so it can’t be.’ Yes you can.
We have to learn what it means to take the title God, it’s more of a title, like somebody’s last name. God’s name is not God. God is a title. God is the same title that the heathers use. In the Hebrew it’s EL - Elohim, El is singular, God, Elohim is plural. What did the pagans call their god? elohim, they called them el and elohim.
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Notice that ray thinks those things which pertain to Christ pertain to both when He was in the flesh and as God. I agree with him. Notice ray, and myself, also believe Jesus when He says "My God" refering to the Father. Jesus has a God.
God bless,
Alex
Gina:
--- Quote from: santgem on June 04, 2015, 01:49:49 PM ---
Hello Alex,
Greetings!
I fully understand your explanation......but;
Look at your verse Psalm 45:5-7, examine it very carefully.
When God tells that to a God, God perceived that that God is associating with the people.
God did not have a God when It is the only God (Old Testament).
in sundry times, It is God the Father who is YHWH/Jehovah (old testament) when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world (Jesus in his flesh) New Testament...
God did not tell in the Old Testament that he has God literally or else you will have two Gods, and that is very clear....
now think about this....
When Jesus died his soul died also but his Spirit is alive. Jesus soul died when his body is dead.
God the Father and Jesus have the same Spirit.
Jesus Spirit gives life....Agree or disagree?
--- End quote ---
Santgem,
Christ was BIRTHED into existence by the Father long before he was conceived physically in Mary's womb.
You said
--- Quote ---God did not tell in the Old Testament that he has God literally or else you will have two Gods, and that is very clear
--- End quote ---
What does this mean:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.…
--- Quote ---
Where Did God Get Knowledge ?
I asked the question; Did God have a master plan when He created the universe? Did He have something in mind? Where did that come from? It must have been something He always had in mind.
It’s like He said: ‘I always wanted to build the universe.’
And you say: Really for how long?
‘Oh I always dreamt that way.’
Yea?
‘Yea.’
Do you think you will ever do it?
‘Ahh, maybe someday.’
[laugher] Seriously, follow me.
Well is it a good plan.
‘Oh yea, it’s a good plan.’
Well why don’t you do it now?
‘Well okay maybe I will do it now.’
Did God always have this plan? You see we get this thing that God has always been everything that He is. God says He doesn’t change. It doesn‘t say that He says He has all knowledge. Oh yea, well where did He get it? I don’t doubt that God has all knowledge, but where did He get it? ‘Well He always had it.’ Do you have chapter and verse on that?
[Comment: Is, was and always will be] Jesus said that. But He was a created being. He came out from the Father. But now that He did, “He is,” He’s alive today, resurrected from the dead. “He was,” He was the one who created everything, He was the one that died for the sins of man and “He always will be.” That’s true. But even if you were to say that of the Father, that He is and was and always will be, there is still no statement that He always was what He is.
Does God learn? You say, ‘Ray it is sacrilege to talk like that.’ Well I’m sorry, but I think about this and I’ve talked to God about stuff like this and I don’t believe that I’m sacrilege at all. I honor God, I worship God.
Coming in here to learn this stuff this is worship. Waving your hands and falling over backwards and foaming at the mouth, that’s not worship. Learning the truths of God and saying, ‘I believe that and I can see that, this is wise, it is wisdom and this will help me be the kind of person that God wants.’ That is worship. You believe and you obey God, that’s worship.
Does God Learn ?
I’ve ask these questions all my life. I didn’t have an answer for them. But I ask the questions. Does God learn? I know He knows everything, but does He know everything because He learned it all?
Well I though, there’s a lot of stuff I’m not going to know. But then I also believed that there is so much more in the Bible than we have ever seen. I mean it’s in there There is so much in there, you just have to pay attention to the words.
You know I look at Scripture and I read them over 30... 50... 180 times and then sometimes something jumps out at me. I’m relentless, I’m like a bulldog and I beg God. I say, ’God I don’t know this, show me. Show me! I know it’s in there, show me!’
Anyway, is there any indication in the Bible that God, before the creation, before there was a universe or even a Jesus Christ, is there any indication that God either learned something or accomplished something that didn’t exist with Him, prior to that? Some might say, ‘Ray I think you are on dangerous ground. I think you are talking heresy and this verges on sacrilegion.’
I ask the question... I had a debate with Jeff Priddy, I friend of mine, has some screwy ideas, but he’s a nice guy. I was talking about emotions and he said, ‘Ray God does not have emotions.’ I said, well what is love and how come God is love, if God does not have emotion. He said, ‘No, that’s just for human terms and He is so way above and beyond that and everything else.’
But then over time I got to thinking about that and I said, wait a minute in Galatians 5 we are given a list of the fruits of God Spirit. One of them in the King James is longsuffering. Okay longsuffering, what does that mean? Patience. What is that made up of? Is it made up as an archaic English term?
Longsuffering - to suffer long. One of the fruits of God Spirit is to suffer long. How can it be a fruit of God’s Spirit if He doesn’t even possess it Himself?
I told somebody that I was going to ask a question at this conference; Did God ever do an honest days work in His life? I mean a really hard day’s work. Did He? Well you would say, ‘well He created the universe, that was a little work.’ No, all these Christians theologies say He just spoke it, let there be stars… let there be suns and moons… let there be an earth… let there this and that… just let there be... let it be... let it be... and there you are. Wow, I’m tried I think I’ll rest a day.
Did God ever do an honest hard days work in His life? You say, ‘Ray it doesn’t apply, you can’t apply what we do to what He does.’ How can you say it doesn’t apply? Jesus Christ worked and He suffered, He had long suffering and He had patience and He was the very image of His Father! The expressed stamped image of His Father! And we are to be in the image of Jesus Christ (Rom. 08). In the very image of God and the very image of Jesus Christ, our elder brother.
So how could Jesus have all this love and all this patience and all this mercy and He said everything He got came from His Father? Every thought He thought, every word He spoke, every deed He done came from His Father. How can you say the Father doesn’t have patience?
Patience is doing without something you want, but you can’t have it now. You have to exercise patience. You might even have to have longsuffering, you might have to suffer long. That is a fruit of God’s Spirit.
I could never believe in my heart of hearts that God would expect of us, things that He would not move His little finger to do Himself.
Jesus Christ berated the Pharisees. He said you load these heavy heavy burdens on people, very difficult for them to do what you tell them they need to do to be holy and righteous and good. Yet you would not move them with one of your fingers.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Is He accusing the Pharisees of something His own Father is guilty of? Are you following me? Is Jesus Christ condemning and berating the Pharisees for something His own Father is guilty of… that He lays heavy burdens on us and He wouldn’t lift them with one of His fingers, but we have to? We have to suffer through sixty or eighty years of sometimes horrible misery and disease and heartache and everything. What does God know about that? Nothing? I don’t think so. I don’t buy that nonsense anymore. I think that God has gone through a lot for us.
The Principal Thing
I said that Onkelos translated Genesis 1:1 not “In the beginning,” but “In wisdom.” “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” I couldn’t understand that, so I looked it up in Strong’s and I got all the words for wisdom and I looked them up and it didn’t make sense. But then I did find Scriptures in the Psalms and so on, that said “In wisdom God created the heaven and the earth.” It’s not Genesis 1:1, but it’s the same, “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth and there are several of them. But is that the way Genesis 1:1 could be translated? Well apparently so. When you look and Strong’s definition there is one word at the end of the definition.
“In the beginning” H7225 rê'shîyth
The first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
He says firstfruit, beginning and then at the end it says the “principal thing.” The principal thing, what is that? The principal thing… and Onkelos translates “In wisdom God created the heavens and the earth.” I just couldn’t get it and finally it hit me. Some place the Bible must tell us what the “principal thing” is.
Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing;
WISDOM
There it is. “Wisdom is the principal thing.” Now go over to chapter 8, it talks about wisdom personified.
Pro 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
v. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
v. 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
v. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
v. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
v. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
v. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
v. 17 I (wisdom) love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
v. 18 Riches and honor are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
v. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
v. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
v. 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
v. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever (before) the earth was.
Wisdom is speaking in the first person, “I” wisdom. “I” was with the Lord in the beginning before there ever was any works. “I” was set up… ever the earth was.” Before there was an earth.
--- End quote ---
(COMMENT: "Before Abraham was, I AM.")
Source: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.msg73653.html#msg73653
Santgem, Tell me something: Why is "wisdom" speaking in the first person?
Gina:
Whose Son is the Christ?
Matthew 22
43 He said to them, "Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying,
44'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET "'?
45"If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?"
Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did GOD ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Where is Christ seated? AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, HIS FATHER?
Remember: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.…
So Whose mouth did "the WORD" go out of?
Isaiah 45 (this is the Old Testament)
22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.…
And hopefully that settles that, Santgem.
Have a good day.
santgem:
I keep on telling you that you have to pay attention to all the words but you deliberately ignoring my suggestion. Anyways i am not surprised because even there are scriptures that back up to what i say, if like me babes who will tell you would not believe either.
There is a big difference between merely a Man and Man at the same time God. I did not say that Jesus will be a Man forever but i do say that Jesus will be a Man and God forever......I told you once again to carefully pay attention to all the words.
Reference that Jesus will be Man and at the same time God......Still more but it is too many to mention.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Luke 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Act 2:31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Act 7:56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God
Rev. 1:13and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest
Rev. 14:14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Psalm 45:5-7
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
When this God has a God in Psalm..........
therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
God anointed that God above thy fellows....that is very clear....and who is his fellows? another fellows God, oh come on!
When God in the Old Testament is the only God.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me. Isa 43:10
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior. Isa 43:11
...I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isa 44:6
...Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one. Isa 44:8
...I am the LORD, Who makes all things,
Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself. Isa 44:24
I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me. Isa 45:5
That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting
That there is none besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:6
I am the LORD, and there is no other. Isa 45:18
And there is no God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me. Isa 45:21
For I am God, and there is no other. Isa 45:22
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