> General Discussions
Three statements Christ made got me thinking, what in the world is going on.
rick:
Hi Gina,
I never indicated that Christ was going to destroy His own temple, but Jesus said destroy this temple and I will raise it in three days, I know Christ was referring to His crucifixion and resurrection when He made that statement.
According to scripture Christ did make that statement, destroy this temple and I shall raise it in three days, Christ said He was going to raise it ( referring to Himself ) but the Father raised Christ, Christ Jesus did not raise Himself .
My issue was discovering Christ said He was going to raise Himself but did not and this cannot be denied and so I was trying to reconcile that Christ said He was going to do something and did not according to His statement.
I understand those who came forward and testified falsely against Him and twisted His words did so that they might find and accusation against Him, more than likely they for the most part were trying to please the high priest as the religious leaders hated Christ and they were hoping to find favor with the religious leaders.
The hatred for Christ was so bad that the Jews said let His blood be on us and on our children , Jesus was whipped badly, punched in the face, spit on and a crown of thorns placed on His head then hit down and stripped naked then crucified and while on the cross He was mocked, ridiculed, not even a murder was treated so badly.
And all these things we did to the Son of God for we are all guilty of such cruelty that sent the prince of life to His death cutting His life short from the earth and the most profound statement Christ made was ( forgive them Father for they know not what they do ) that statement being made while He was being crucified and that statement still holds true to this present day for we really don’t know what we do.
So I shall conclude by saying thank you Jesus for what you did for all of humanity including me too. Thank you. :) :) :)
John from Kentucky:
I was reading about another subject and accidentally (yeah, right :D) came upon this, where Ray discusses the point if Jesus raised Himself or if the Father did.
Thought it might be helpful to this thread.
http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#concordant
Anyway, don't be to sophomoric about condemning me for purposely trying to deceive people.
That is slanderous, Dwayne, and you don't have leg to stand on when you lower yourself to such tactics.
I do not have the time nor the inclination to try and answer all of your hundreds and hundreds of Scriptural references. However, Let me just comment on your first unscriptural argument and see if you are willing to own up to your own unscriptural scholarship.
You say that Jesus claimed that He would raise HIMSELF from the dead, is that correct? Did Jesus actually say that He, Himself, would be the One Who would raise Himself after He was dead? Did he actually say that? Where? You can assume that that is what is "meant" by "I will raise it up." You can assume that that is what is "meant" by "I have the POWER..." And what pray tell was Jesus basing that statement on? His own 'power' to raise the dead while He Himself IS DEAD? No, read it:
"THIS PRECEPT I GOT FROM MY FATHER."
Jesus' FATHER told Him what would be done on the third day.
You say that this word 'xousia' means power or authority WHEN REFERRING TO GOD. Not so. Also when referring to carnal men:
"Then saith Pilate unto Him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have POWER [Gk: exousia] to crucify thee, and have POWER [Gk: exousia] to release thee?" (John 19:10).
Not only in the Scriptures themselves, but in Strong's definition of this word 'exousia' it matters not one iota whether it is speaking of God's power or some human power delegated by God. Am I missing something here, Dwayne?
Furthermore, This word 'exousia' is translated "right" several times in the KING JAMES. Examples:
"We have an altar, whereof they have no RIGHT [Gk: exousia] to eat which serve the tabernacle" (Heb. 13:10).
"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT [Gk: exousia] to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city" (Rev. 22:14).
Now then: Is there a statement in the Bible that says, "Jesus Christ raised Himself from the dead?" Is there such a statement in the Bible? In other words, DID JESUS RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD? Did He? Where does it say so, Wayne? Where? Because if you can find a place that says that, then I have Scriptures that CONTRADICT that, and we both know (at least I know, and I think you know, because you are fond of using the word 'contradict' and 'contradiction' in your criticism) that the Scriptures DON'T CONTRADICT. Are there Scriptures in the Bible, Dwayne, that tell us EXACTLY AND SPECIFICALLY WHO IT WAS THAT RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD? Yes, there are. Does any ONE OF THEM say that it was Jesus Who raised HIMSELF from the dead? Which one might that be? THERE ARE NONE.
However, Dwayne, there ARE Scripture that do tell us exactly WHO RAISED JESUS FROM THE DEAD. The question is will YOU believe these Scriptures when I show them to you? OF COURSE YOU WON'T. I would bet dollars to donuts you won't.
Here are a couple:
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words [and you too, Dwayne], Jesus of Nazareth... Whom GOD HAS RAISED UP having loosed the pains OF DEATH" (Acts 2:24).
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit OF GOD dwell in you... But if the Spirit OF HIM [GOD THE FATHER] that RAISED UP JESUS FROM THE DEAD dwell in you, He [God the Father] that RAISED UP CHRIST FROM THE DEAD shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you... For as many as are led by the SPIRIT OF GOD [GOD THE FATHER], they are the sons of God [God the Father, not sons of the Son]" (Rom. 8:9, 11, & 14).
"Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and GOD THE FATHER, WHO RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD" (Gal. 1:1).
Now then, do we have a Scripture that actually says that "Jesus Christ raised Himself up from the dead?" NO. NO, we don't. Do we have numerous Scriptures that state that "God the Father raised up Jesus from the dead?" Yes. Yes, we do. Will you now acknowledge that the Scriptures plainly tell us numerous that that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead and that there is not one Scripture that states the Jesus Christ raised Himself from the dead, and that both cannot be true, seeing that the Scriptures cannot and do not contradict?
Will you now acknowledge that your argument is WRONG? NO, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Why don't you prove me wrong, Dwayne?
And have a nice day.
Ray
Gina:
--- Quote from: Gina on June 04, 2015, 06:58:52 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 04, 2015, 05:44:53 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 03, 2015, 10:50:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 03, 2015, 10:01:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 03, 2015, 07:36:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 03, 2015, 06:32:22 PM ---
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple and I will build it again in three days."
Joh 12:49 That is because what I taught was not from myself. The Father who sent me told me what to say and what to teach.
So, I know when Christ died He was actually dead, and we know that the dead have no perception, so Christ said He would raise this temple in three days, how is that possible ?
In Joh 12: 49 we see that it Was the Father who gave Christ His words, what to say and what to teach.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Joh 14:9 Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'?
I need to go back to Ray’s 207 conference on who and what is Jesus and who is His Father again but what I’m wondering now is, is it the Father we know and not Jesus ? What I mean is it seems that I know the name of Jesus but everything Jesus did was the Father doing it all.
It must be as Christ said, to know Christ is to know the Father as if they are one in the same. I guess it’s back to the drawing board for me, again. :-\
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
It was definitely God the Father that raised up Christ. Peter affirms this several times as well as Paul.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
That’s my point, God raised Jesus from the grave, it was God the Father who said through Jesus destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Jesus could not of resurrected Himself being dead but God the Father could indeed raise Jesus having life in Himself to do so but it was Jesus who said He Himself would raise this temple in three days referring to His self.
Jesus said it and I’m not going to go anywhere else with that just out of a healthy fear of God . I’m not sure how to reconcile Jesus stating He was going to raise Himself and God the Father actually raising Christ or if I am to reconcile it I would conclude Jesus and God the Father are one in the same with the exception of perhaps having different personality but the word of God is clear in that there is but only one God.
So if there is only one God and Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it and we know Jesus was raised from the dead and God the Father raised Christ then one would conclude Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus and so that is how I see Jesus raising Himself as He said He would.
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
I don't think I agree with you and here is why.
Jesus and God the Father are not the same though. Jesus is a being while God the Father is not. Jesus has a beginning, while God the Father does not. Jesus has a God while God the Father does not.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
No argument from me, it doesn’t get any clearer than how you stated it. I see it was nothing more than me taking the words of Jesus literally when He said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
Perhaps it’s a mistranslation for all I know, maybe Jesus never said that, you know Ray had pointed stuff like that out in his writing.
Thanks Alex, much appreciated . :)
--- End quote ---
Hi, Rick
He did say that because what will you do with these verses:
39 And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads
40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,…
…60 They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two [FALSE WITNESSES] came forward,
61 and said, "This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'"
62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?"…
Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.'"
59 Not even in this respect was their testimony consistent.…
Mark 15:29
Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, "So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days,
[Comment: It's much easier to twist Jesus' words than to admit they themselves could be wrong. Jesus never said that HE, Himself would do the destroying of his own temple. Remember, these were FALSE witnesses and they went around TWISTING His Words for the sake of mocking Him because they hated His guts for shining a Light on their stupid, arrogant, evil ways. So they were thrilled when he was hanging on that cross dying and gasping for breath. And started twisting His words. They heard Him say, Destroy this temple and I will raise it up, but they twisted it so that others would think He said something else. Satan was there and he is here right now too. You could pray and ask God to show you the truth, Rick, instead of assuming something that isn't true. That is another option. And a pretty smart one if I say so myself. :) ]
--- End quote ---
Hi, Rick
--- Quote from: Rick on June 04, 2015, 09:11:29 PM ---Hi Gina,
I never indicated that Christ was going to destroy His own temple, but Jesus said destroy this temple and I will raise it in three days, I know Christ was referring to His crucifixion and resurrection when He made that statement.
According to scripture Christ did make that statement, destroy this temple and I shall raise it in three days, Christ said He was going to raise it ( referring to Himself ) but the Father raised Christ, Christ Jesus did not raise Himself .
My issue was discovering Christ said He was going to raise Himself but did not and this cannot be denied and so I was trying to reconcile that Christ said He was going to do something and did not according to His statement.
I understand those who came forward and testified falsely against Him and twisted His words did so that they might find and accusation against Him, more than likely they for the most part were trying to please the high priest as the religious leaders hated Christ and they were hoping to find favor with the religious leaders.
The hatred for Christ was so bad that the Jews said let His blood be on us and on our children , Jesus was whipped badly, punched in the face, spit on and a crown of thorns placed on His head then hit down and stripped naked then crucified and while on the cross He was mocked, ridiculed, not even a murder was treated so badly.
And all these things we did to the Son of God for we are all guilty of such cruelty that sent the prince of life to His death cutting His life short from the earth and the most profound statement Christ made was ( forgive them Father for they know not what they do ) that statement being made while He was being crucified and that statement still holds true to this present day for we really don’t know what we do.
So I shall conclude by saying thank you Jesus for what you did for all of humanity including me too. Thank you. :) :) :)
--- End quote ---
Who's we? I wasn't there. I didn't do all that to Him or crucify anyone. Have you? Neither did His mother or His disciples. While they "all forsook Him," none of His chosen disciples so much as called out for His death or crucifixion, Rick. So I don't have any idea what you're talking about.
Not even Judas - don't you remember he repented of betraying an "innocent man" then went and threw himself over a cliff? Even Judas didn't cry out for Him to be crucified.
I agree that we are all guilty of all (because we have the potential of doing those things). But I did not crucify my Lord or whip Him or anyone else for that matter.
There was a time when I was deceived by the church into thinking that I had, but Ray cleared that matter up for me once and for all.
And I am well aware that you never mentioned one word about Jesus destroying His own temple. But since you thought He was capable of raising His own dead body up from the dead, I had to go to that verse too because it tied everything together so perfectly.
I'm glad you feel better. Yes, God is very good to you.
rick:
Hi John,
I didn’t find in your reply anything specific that I was hoping for although I did pick up a hint from Ray of what had me perplex.
( Now then: Is there a statement in the Bible that says, "Jesus Christ raised Himself from the dead?" Is there such a statement in the Bible? In other words, DID JESUS RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD? Did He? Where does it say so )
That statement Ray made is very helpful to me, as I can now reconsider my position with a clearer direction. So I thank you John for just happening across that e mail from Ray.
santgem:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 04, 2015, 03:55:29 PM ---Hi again Santgem,
I think you should take a look once more at Ray's study of who Jesus and the Father are. Ray points out very clearly that Jesus is Jehova in the old testatement. So I don't agree with you that God the Father is YHWH/Jehovah. Jehova/Elohim is a reference to the Father but that is not the same as Jehova/YHWH.
No one knew the Father existed in the old testatement. Perhaps only a few hints aside from the fact that Elohim expresses a duality--Let US make man in OUR image.
More specifically, ray covers this exact passage of Hebrews and he shows that God the Father spoke to our fathers not because He is "Jehova" but because everything is out of Him and through Jesus Christ, His spokesman/Logos/Word/Very Image.
--------------------------------------------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
One of the most powerful things we have to learn in the Scripture is that no man has ever seen God or heard His voice. You have just got to believe that. It says that over and over, so you got to believe it. If you don’t, well then you will think Jehovah is God the Father and you will have all these crazy things, that aren’t true. It’s a major truth. We have to find out who the God of the Bible is. "No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)." Is that clear!
...
...
Jesus Christ is a thing. He is the Son of God, the very image of Him. Well if He is something, where did He come from? Out of GOD! Where did everything else come from? Through Christ! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah what? Jehovah/Elohim! Who is His Father? His Father, is the Father, Elohim! Fair enough.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with you completely that you have two God's if the God of the old testatement has a God. By inspiration of God, both Psalm's and Hebrews show this to be true as well as many other new testatement witnesses.
God bless,
Alex
--- End quote ---
Hello Alex,
Greetings!
Alex, maybe you should have to pay attention to all the words, you confused yourself, see why?
So I don't agree with you that God the Father is YHWH/Jehovah
So you do not believe that the name of God the Father is also Jehovah, then i would strongly recommend to you to read again Ray's article for you to be reminded.
No one knew the Father existed in the old testament
very well said, God the Father was introduced by Jesus in the New Testament
More specifically, ray covers this exact passage of Hebrews and he shows that God the Father spoke to our fathers not because He is "Jehova" but because everything is out of Him and through Jesus Christ, His spokesman/Logos/Word/Very Image.
You just mentioned lately that God has a God in the Old testament, meaning you are contradicting yourself.
One of the most powerful things we have to learn in the Scripture is that no man has ever seen God or heard His voice. You have just got to believe that. It says that over and over, so you got to believe it. If you don’t, well then you will think Jehovah is God the Father and you will have all these crazy things, that aren’t true. It’s a major truth. We have to find out who the God of the Bible is. "No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)." Is that clear!
In the OT God was seen and heard by many, but God the Father was seen and heard by no one.
I disagree with you completely that you have two God's if the God of the old testatement has a God. By inspiration of God, both Psalm's and Hebrews show this to be true as well as many other new testatement witnesses.
When Jesus is in the form of God there is only one God, but when Jesus had a flesh then that time he had a God but did not cease to be God. Jesus will be man and God forever as i said, so in short if you only widen your thinking you could comprehend that Jesus will have a God because he did not cease to be a Man and to be God........It's that fairly clear?
Pay attention to the Words.
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