> General Discussions
Three statements Christ made got me thinking, what in the world is going on.
santgem:
--- Quote from: Gina on June 04, 2015, 02:47:07 PM ---Santgem,
I respectfully request you both think about how you're arguing over words and genealogies and using this thread to distract yourselves from something else, whatever that is. Why don't you go listen to one of Ray's lectures or something useful.
--- End quote ---
Hi Gina,
Yes you are right, that is why teaching is not allowed in the forum.
i just answered Alex for clarification.
lilitalienboi16:
Hi again Santgem,
I think you should take a look once more at Ray's study of who Jesus and the Father are. Ray points out very clearly that Jesus is Jehova in the old testatement. So I don't agree with you that God the Father is YHWH/Jehovah. Jehova/Elohim is a reference to the Father but that is not the same as Jehova/YHWH.
No one knew the Father existed in the old testatement. Perhaps only a few hints aside from the fact that Elohim expresses a duality--Let US make man in OUR image.
More specifically, ray covers this exact passage of Hebrews and he shows that God the Father spoke to our fathers not because He is "Jehova" but because everything is out of Him and through Jesus Christ, His spokesman/Logos/Word/Very Image.
--------------------------------------------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
One of the most powerful things we have to learn in the Scripture is that no man has ever seen God or heard His voice. You have just got to believe that. It says that over and over, so you got to believe it. If you don’t, well then you will think Jehovah is God the Father and you will have all these crazy things, that aren’t true. It’s a major truth. We have to find out who the God of the Bible is. "No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)." Is that clear!
...
...
Jesus Christ is a thing. He is the Son of God, the very image of Him. Well if He is something, where did He come from? Out of GOD! Where did everything else come from? Through Christ! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah what? Jehovah/Elohim! Who is His Father? His Father, is the Father, Elohim! Fair enough.
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I disagree with you completely that you have two God's if the God of the old testatement has a God. By inspiration of God, both Psalm's and Hebrews show this to be true as well as many other new testatement witnesses.
God bless,
Alex
rick:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 03, 2015, 10:50:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 03, 2015, 10:01:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 03, 2015, 07:36:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 03, 2015, 06:32:22 PM ---
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple and I will build it again in three days."
Joh 12:49 That is because what I taught was not from myself. The Father who sent me told me what to say and what to teach.
So, I know when Christ died He was actually dead, and we know that the dead have no perception, so Christ said He would raise this temple in three days, how is that possible ?
In Joh 12: 49 we see that it Was the Father who gave Christ His words, what to say and what to teach.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Joh 14:9 Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'?
I need to go back to Ray’s 207 conference on who and what is Jesus and who is His Father again but what I’m wondering now is, is it the Father we know and not Jesus ? What I mean is it seems that I know the name of Jesus but everything Jesus did was the Father doing it all.
It must be as Christ said, to know Christ is to know the Father as if they are one in the same. I guess it’s back to the drawing board for me, again. :-\
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
It was definitely God the Father that raised up Christ. Peter affirms this several times as well as Paul.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
That’s my point, God raised Jesus from the grave, it was God the Father who said through Jesus destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Jesus could not of resurrected Himself being dead but God the Father could indeed raise Jesus having life in Himself to do so but it was Jesus who said He Himself would raise this temple in three days referring to His self.
Jesus said it and I’m not going to go anywhere else with that just out of a healthy fear of God . I’m not sure how to reconcile Jesus stating He was going to raise Himself and God the Father actually raising Christ or if I am to reconcile it I would conclude Jesus and God the Father are one in the same with the exception of perhaps having different personality but the word of God is clear in that there is but only one God.
So if there is only one God and Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it and we know Jesus was raised from the dead and God the Father raised Christ then one would conclude Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus and so that is how I see Jesus raising Himself as He said He would.
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
I don't think I agree with you and here is why.
Jesus and God the Father are not the same though. Jesus is a being while God the Father is not. Jesus has a beginning, while God the Father does not. Jesus has a God while God the Father does not.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
No argument from me, it doesn’t get any clearer than how you stated it. I see it was nothing more than me taking the words of Jesus literally when He said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
Perhaps it’s a mistranslation for all I know, maybe Jesus never said that, you know Ray had pointed stuff like that out in his writing.
Thanks Alex, much appreciated . :)
rick:
--- Quote from: Gina on June 03, 2015, 11:18:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 03, 2015, 10:01:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 03, 2015, 07:36:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 03, 2015, 06:32:22 PM ---
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple and I will build it again in three days."
Joh 12:49 That is because what I taught was not from myself. The Father who sent me told me what to say and what to teach.
So, I know when Christ died He was actually dead, and we know that the dead have no perception, so Christ said He would raise this temple in three days, how is that possible ?
In Joh 12: 49 we see that it Was the Father who gave Christ His words, what to say and what to teach.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Joh 14:9 Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'?
I need to go back to Ray’s 207 conference on who and what is Jesus and who is His Father again but what I’m wondering now is, is it the Father we know and not Jesus ? What I mean is it seems that I know the name of Jesus but everything Jesus did was the Father doing it all.
It must be as Christ said, to know Christ is to know the Father as if they are one in the same. I guess it’s back to the drawing board for me, again. :-\
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
It was definitely God the Father that raised up Christ. Peter affirms this several times as well as Paul.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
That’s my point, God raised Jesus from the grave, it was God the Father who said through Jesus destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Jesus could not of resurrected Himself being dead but God the Father could indeed raise Jesus having life in Himself to do so but it was Jesus who said He Himself would raise this temple in three days referring to His self.
Jesus said it and I’m not going to go anywhere else with that just out of a healthy fear of God . I’m not sure how to reconcile Jesus stating He was going to raise Himself and God the Father actually raising Christ or if I am to reconcile it I would conclude Jesus and God the Father are one in the same with the exception of perhaps having different personality but the word of God is clear in that there is but only one God.
So if there is only one God and Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it and we know Jesus was raised from the dead and God the Father raised Christ then one would conclude Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus and so that is how I see Jesus raising Himself as He said He would.
--- End quote ---
And it's, could not HAVE, not could not "of." It sounds like "of" phonetically, but trust me, the word is "have." Also, it's Himself, not "His self."
Now, is that clear or do you still have questions? If you say you don't understand, I will be astounded.
--- End quote ---
Hi Gina,
Yes Gina, it is clear, I think I understand and that in itself should still astound you, at least I hope it does.
Also my apologies for the improper English with His self rather than Himself, wish I had you for an English teacher, probably wouldn’t need spell check either. Lol
Thank you for your response. :)
Gina:
--- Quote from: Rick on June 04, 2015, 05:44:53 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 03, 2015, 10:50:58 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 03, 2015, 10:01:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on June 03, 2015, 07:36:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: Rick on June 03, 2015, 06:32:22 PM ---
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple and I will build it again in three days."
Joh 12:49 That is because what I taught was not from myself. The Father who sent me told me what to say and what to teach.
So, I know when Christ died He was actually dead, and we know that the dead have no perception, so Christ said He would raise this temple in three days, how is that possible ?
In Joh 12: 49 we see that it Was the Father who gave Christ His words, what to say and what to teach.
Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."
Joh 14:9 Jesus answered, "Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, 'Show us the Father'?
I need to go back to Ray’s 207 conference on who and what is Jesus and who is His Father again but what I’m wondering now is, is it the Father we know and not Jesus ? What I mean is it seems that I know the name of Jesus but everything Jesus did was the Father doing it all.
It must be as Christ said, to know Christ is to know the Father as if they are one in the same. I guess it’s back to the drawing board for me, again. :-\
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
It was definitely God the Father that raised up Christ. Peter affirms this several times as well as Paul.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
That’s my point, God raised Jesus from the grave, it was God the Father who said through Jesus destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Jesus could not of resurrected Himself being dead but God the Father could indeed raise Jesus having life in Himself to do so but it was Jesus who said He Himself would raise this temple in three days referring to His self.
Jesus said it and I’m not going to go anywhere else with that just out of a healthy fear of God . I’m not sure how to reconcile Jesus stating He was going to raise Himself and God the Father actually raising Christ or if I am to reconcile it I would conclude Jesus and God the Father are one in the same with the exception of perhaps having different personality but the word of God is clear in that there is but only one God.
So if there is only one God and Jesus said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it and we know Jesus was raised from the dead and God the Father raised Christ then one would conclude Jesus is the Father and the Father is Jesus and so that is how I see Jesus raising Himself as He said He would.
--- End quote ---
Hi Rick,
I don't think I agree with you and here is why.
Jesus and God the Father are not the same though. Jesus is a being while God the Father is not. Jesus has a beginning, while God the Father does not. Jesus has a God while God the Father does not.
--- End quote ---
Hi Alex,
No argument from me, it doesn’t get any clearer than how you stated it. I see it was nothing more than me taking the words of Jesus literally when He said destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
Perhaps it’s a mistranslation for all I know, maybe Jesus never said that, you know Ray had pointed stuff like that out in his writing.
Thanks Alex, much appreciated . :)
--- End quote ---
Hi, Rick
He did say that because what will you do with these verses:
39 And those passing by were hurling abuse at Him, wagging their heads
40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross."
41 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,…
…60 They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two [FALSE WITNESSES] came forward,
61 and said, "This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.'"
62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?"…
Mark 14:58
"We heard him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.'"
59 Not even in this respect was their testimony consistent.…
Mark 15:29
Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, "So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days,
[Comment: It's much easier to twist Jesus' words than to admit they themselves could be wrong. Jesus never said that HE, Himself would do the destroying of his own temple. Remember, these were FALSE witnesses and they went around TWISTING His Words for the sake of mocking Him because they hated His guts for shining a Light on their stupid, arrogant, evil ways. So they were thrilled when he was hanging on that cross dying and gasping for breath. And started twisting His words. They heard Him say, Destroy this temple and I will raise it up, but they twisted it so that others would think He said something else. Satan was there and he is here right now too. You could pray and ask God to show you the truth, Rick, instead of assuming something that isn't true. That is another option. And a pretty smart one if I say so myself. :) ]
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