> General Discussions
God means Placer
lilitalienboi16:
Hi Santgem,
You wanted some corrections so I'll give them.
You said:" Jesus who is the Word/Jehovah/YHWH/I AM/Savior and not Jesus in the flesh is co-
creator of God the Father for all. (After Jesus ascended to His Father we can conclude
that they are now continuously creating)."
Jesus and His Father are not "continuously creating." Elohim (dual) rested from His works of creating and making on the seventh day.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
You said; ": All of Jesus saying in NT regarding himself is Him in
the Flesh (any correction/s are gladly welcome) "
This simply isn't true. Jesus made a statement after He was resurrected in His spiritual body in which He appeared to Mary as a gardner.
John 20:15-17
15 She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
See the entire book of Revelation given long after Christ had ascended to God in which He gave a revelation of Himself to John.
Jesus had glory with His Father before the world began which pertains to before He was MADE man (flesh).
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You BEFORE the world was.
In revelation, Jesus says of Himself that HE is the beginning of the creation of God. God the Father was not created, Jesus is, was, and will be, the beginning of the creation of God.
Revelation 3:14 [ The Lukewarm Church ] “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Rev 3:14 and John 20 were made after He was raised spiritual and Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8 ) He is was and will have a God. He is was and will be the beginning of the creation of God.
You state that: Other will say no, he will not be a man because he already had a glorious body, but can anyone deny the Scriptures?
No one denies those scriptures but I don't agree with your understanding of them. Those verses of scripture have nothing to do with Jesus' eternal condition and everything to do with how He will judge the world. Christ is our mediator to God as "a man" because He makes intercessions for us (our High Priest) through His man EXPERIENCES. He RELATES to our weaknesses and infirmities because of his EXPERIENCE in the flesh and so faithfuly can make petitions on OUR behalf through that perspective. This will carry over into how He judges the world (Acts 17:35). He won't judge the world through a standard humans cannot possibly be held to. No one will be able to say that He is holding them to standards that not even He Himself could uphold.
Now Jesus has been restored to that "former glory" He had with His Father before the world began. Part of that glory includes being SPIRIT, possessing immortality, fully glorified. Moses (nor any man) couldn't even look on His (Jesus') face and live, He had to hide in a fissure and peer through some rocks to see His back part! That is not a man! That is a glorious powerful spiritual being who has the form of a man so that we can relate to God whom He is the image of. Jesus is as much a man as He is a burning bush, a gardner, a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day, a lamb, a lion etc... Being spirit is part of that glory that Jesus had before the world began. Spiritual beings cannot die. Christ needed to be made man to die.
1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
2 Cor 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Numbers 23:19 GOD IS NOT A MAN, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Take numbers 23:19 to mean whatever you want it to mean. Interestingly, the word God, is the singular form of Elohim--'El.'
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
Hi santgem,
I would like to discuss a few of your comments, we are all seeking a better understand of these things, so the more Scripture we can see on these things the better. I see Alex has answered you already and I may have repeated some of what he is saying, but I'll leave it as it is.
--- Quote ---8. Jesus who is the Word/Jehovah/YHWH/I AM/Savior and not Jesus in the flesh is co-
creator of God the Father for all. (After Jesus ascended to His Father we can conclude
that they are now continuously creating).
--- End quote ---
I trying to understand what you mean by "After Jesus ascended to His Father we can conclude
that they are now continuously creating"? There is a Scripture that shows They (Father and Son) continued to "work" while Jesus was in the flesh... do you consider that different than 'creating'?
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
I mean I do know what you mean by They continue creating after Jesus ascended... the literal act of creation was "finished" in Genesis 2, but certainly the work continues.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. Just trying to see where you're coming from on this.
--- Quote ---9. If Jesus say “I came OUT from God” be it known that Jesus is in the flesh not Jesus
who is the Word/YHWH/Jehovah. All of Jesus saying in NT regarding himself is Him in
the Flesh (any correction/s are gladly welcome)
10. God the Father and Jehovah [Jesus] Elohim, ARE ONE GOD. "I and My Father are ONE"
(John 10:30). "One" what? O-N-E G-O-D! (by RAY)
--- End quote ---
Okay so Jesus did make that statement while in the flesh... was He somebody different as the God of the OT then? NO of course not... right in your next comment it clarifies that He/Jesus/the Son, and the Father is One. They always were One and always will be One, They are inseparable.
Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
--- Quote ---When that God became human He now subjected to His Father, Even after that human who is God raised from the dead by God the Father, He will have a God and a Father, because that Human who is God who is Jesus did not cease to be God and will be Man according to Scriptures.
Other will say no, he will not be a man because he already had a glorious body, but can anyone deny the Scriptures?
1Tim. 2:5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
--- End quote ---
Okay not sure but from this it seems like you are saying that the OT God - the Son was not subject to the Father until He became flesh? Well there are also words used like "let Us make man in Our" (Gen 1:26) "Come, let Us go down" (Gen 11:7). But it was not until Jesus came and revealed to the world that there was this Father and Son relationship that we know of it.
Luke 10:22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Now that Christ revealed the Father, we can see where the Son was referred to in the OT and even then He was referred to be "MY (Father's) Servant" (the Son who became Christ Jesus), meaning He/the Son was subject to the Father even then.
Isa 42:1 Behold My Servant! I am upholding Him. My Chosen! Accepted by My soul! I bestow My spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the nations." (CLV)
And we can understand that this was indeed speaking of who would become Christ Jesus and be crucified "a bruised Reed," but that is being declared then and there "Behold" at that time when it is spoken and also a prophecy of what He will be sent to do.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed He will not break, and dimmed flax He will not quench, for truth will He bring forth judgment." (CLV)
I would also like to show some Scripture of Him being a man in the OT... I don't think there would be any dispute about His being a man now, in His glorious form as of the Scripture you gave. I'm trying to figure out if you're saying He/the Son had to take on human form to be a man? So here are OT Scripture that does show He was always considered as a man there in the OT, both in His glorious form and in the natural physical form.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. (also see Eze 08).
Gen 18:1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
v. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
v. 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
He was brought forth from the beginning to be the Spokesman and to have an image/shape/form for the invisible God, from which He would then create the physical form of mankind to be like Him.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
1Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
Now I believe this is speaking of the physical form and certainly not the spiritual image of God, that as we know is a process still being worked out. So this is Scripture I found that you may want to consider in your study.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
In the fairness of discussion for the topic of whether Jesus is a man or not, I wanted to share a bit more and then try and tie it together.
Firstly, it was ray who rightly pointed out that there is no statement in the old testatement which says that "God is spirit."
Now, with that being said, there is a statement in the old testatement that say, "God is not a man. (Num. 23:19)" Curiously, this God is the hebrew word "El" which is the singular for God (Elohim). The, "let US make man in OUR image" and "Let US go..."
It could be argued that this singular reference must be God the Father and I think that could be possible or at least argued but i'm not sure.
Now in the new testatement we have statements such as "God IS spirit. (John 4:24)" This is the greek word THEOS which usually refers to God the Father, especially when Christ is using the word or is already included in the statement. Such as the "Theos and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:3)."
We also have the scriptures SantGem referred to as Jesus being a man when it comes to judgment (1 Tim 2:5, Acts 17:31).
So then is Jesus a man? I don't think the scriptures are saying that. The references to Him being a man are purely in the context of judgment. The old testatement references to Jesus are that He has the "likeness" or "form" of a man but not that He is a man. In the new testatement we do find scriptures that verify Christ as being spirit (NOW) such as Him being raised a quickening spirit (1 Cor 15:45) and that He is the spirit (2 Cor 3:17). Jesus told the disciples that He was coming to them, how? In the form of the comforter (holy spirit). He wasn't leaving them bereaved (John 14:18)
We also know flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven so Jesus is at the very least not flesh and blood man (1 Cor 15:50). Jesus was made man by emptying Himself.
So how do we reconcile all these things? I don't think Christ is any more a man than He is a burning bush or a lamb while He has been those things, I think He is more than those things. A spiritual being with the FORM or LIKENESS of a man is what the scriptures seem to indicate.
Eze 1:26 And above the expanse that [is] over their head, as an appearance of a sapphire stone, [is] the likeness of a throne, and on the likeness of the throne a likeness, as the appearance of man upon it from above." (CLV)
Eze 1:26 And above the expanse that was over their heads, as the appearance of a sapphire stone, was the likeness of a throne,—and upon the likeness of a throne, was a likeness as the appearance of a man upon it above. (ROTHERHAM'S)
Daniel 7:9-10 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (KJV)
Rev 1:13-18 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Psalm 104:2 The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent.
Welp I hope this helps the discussion in a positive and constructive way.
God bless,
Alex
santgem:
Hello Kat and Alex,
Greetings!
So sorry that I cannot answers you both in one time. There are lot of topics that if I answer all of these will bring us to nowhere. Maybe the best possible thing we can do is to learn from each other one by one to what I just posted.
Number 8 answer
Yes indeed that the Father and Son continued to “work” while Jesus was in the flesh. The question is, Is infant Jesus still creating? Where do all the people comes from when Jesus is still infant? Who creates people? Do people create people? Do you create people? Is God stop creating people up to this date? Is God stop creating things up to this date? Is God literally rested after creation and stop creating people and things up to this date? When Jesus ascended to heaven, did He not creating people and things up to this date or only the God the Father is creating? Is Jesus not given up some of His prior Glory while in the flesh?
@Kat. “was He somebody different as the God of the OT then? NO of course not”.
They are not literally one! Jesus is not the Father himself. Jesus is having the flesh. Jesus is God and Man at the same time, while Father is Spirit. Jesus is now having a God and Father while in the flesh and even after his resurrection. When Jesus is in the form of Jehovah, they are one! The Word was with God. The Word was God.
@Kat. Now that Christ revealed the Father, we can see where the Son was referred to in the OT and even then He was referred to be "MY (Father's) Servant" (the Son who became Christ Jesus), meaning He/the Son was subject to the Father even then.
Isa 42:1 Behold My Servant! I am upholding Him. My Chosen! Accepted by My soul! I bestow My spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the nations." (CLV)
And we can understand that this was indeed speaking of who would become Christ Jesus and be crucified "a bruised Reed," but that is being declared then and there "Behold" at that time when it is spoken and also a prophecy of what He will be sent to do.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed He will not break, and dimmed flax He will not quench, for truth will He bring forth judgment." (CLV)
This is exactly what I mean. You know very well that the one speaking there is Jesus in Jehovah form. God did not say this when there is still nothing but only God and the Word or before creation. That verse is a prophecy regarding Jesus who would be having a flesh, who “He shall bring forth judgment to the nations”. Jesus when the fullness of time will be subjected to his Father. There is no servant and judgment of the nations before creation. The Son is not subjected and not servant to the Father before creation. The verses are prophecy to Jesus so that he will be servant and be subjected to his Father.
I would also like to show some Scripture of Him being a man in the OT... I don't think there would be any dispute about His being a man now, in His glorious form as of the Scripture you gave. I'm trying to figure out if you're saying He/the Son had to take on human form to be a man? So here are OT Scripture that does show He was always considered as a man there in the OT, both in His glorious form and in the natural physical form.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. (also see Eze 08).
Gen 18:1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
v. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
v. 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
Before creation there is no throne, It takes creation to have a throne. It takes human and creation to have a God.
He was brought forth from the beginning to be the Spokesman and to have an image/shape/form for the invisible God, from which He would then create the physical form of mankind to be like Him.
Yes it is true of what had you said above, reminding that the Spokesman have yet a flesh from the beginning. Word became flesh after creation.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
1Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
Now I believe this is speaking of the physical form and certainly not the spiritual image of God, that as we know is a process still being worked out. So this is Scripture I found that you may want to consider in your study.
Before creation God already has a plan. God already will bring a savior even there is no sin being committed. God wants us to be like Him to know good and evil that is why He brings all of these. God cannot die so He brings Jesus His only Son. Jehovah gave up some of His prior glory in order to die. When Jehovah/Word became flesh He was subjected to his Father. The Word/Jehovah that became flesh is Jesus. Jesus will be subjected to his God and to his Father. Yes indeed they are one God before because the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus is the Word who became flesh. Jesus will be Man and God even after his resurrection and being a Man will be subjected to God.
Psalm 22:10 . I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
I was cast upon thee from my birth: thou art my God from the time I was born (WEB)
I was cast upon thee from the womb; Thou art my God since my mother bare me(ASV)
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.(KJV)
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Glad hearing from you again, PEACE!
Pini56:
Hello.
Ray said and I quote: " Jesus will always be a man". End quote.
Regards, Geoff.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version