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Author Topic: Turning the other cheek  (Read 4033 times)

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Rolihlahla

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Turning the other cheek
« on: June 07, 2015, 03:37:36 PM »

When it comes to turning the other cheek,should a follower of Christ involve police when one does you wrong?Should one file a report and sue or would that be considered NOT turning the other cheek?

I'm interested to hear some wisdom regarding this,as I thought we should rather leave room for God's revenge.Correct me if I'm wrong!

Been meaning to raise this up for a while but didn't know how to ask the question,until I read a thread by karel_7 where someone says to her she must call the police.I'm a bit confused about this "turning the other cheek"
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“You offer assistance to the impious, and you are joined in friendship with those who hate the Lord. And for this reason, you certainly deserve the wrath of the Lord."

Gina

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2015, 04:17:29 PM »

Well, Nelson, that someone was me, Gina.  I never told her she MUST call the police.  I asked her a question, Nelson.  I'm sure it was all a misunderstanding, but let's not twist my words.

Hi, Karen

Do you think you're going to be physically harmed by your persecutors and can you call the police?


I deleted my post where I said that I, MYSELF, would not hesitate to call the police in certain circumstances.  It is not a sin to call the police when crimes are being committed, for instance in my case where a bunch of grown men were loitering around outside at 11 pm at night and lo and behold someone had tagged our apartments.  And even then, I said that I requested that the police simply do a DRIVE-BY TO MAKE HIS PRESENCE KNOWN AND TO SCARE THEM OFF.

And then I said:

Karen, I have a question:  were you under any sort of stress before this all started?  I don't want to sound like I don't believe you're experiencing something, but I'm not ready to believe that someone "out there" is trying to harm you with radiation or weapons.  If someone was trying to harm you, your neighbors would not be so uncaring, especially since it could harm them too, couldn't it?  But they're not worried at all.  And that tells me your perception is off -- maybe because you're suffering from exhaustion from not sleeping.  Have you taken any medications in the recent past?  Are you under the care of a doctor or anything?  If so, you might want to look up the contraindications of the medication just to make sure that you're taking them in the proper dosage and not mixing them with things like alcohol or other drugs or whatever.

It is not a sin to involve the police, and I never said that anyone SHOULD contact the police.  And I never said one word about suing anyone.


1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

3 Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

4 for it is a minister of God to you for GOOD. But if YOU do what is EVIL, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for NOTHING; for it is a minister of God, an AVENGER who brings WRATH on the one who P-R-A-C-T-I-C-E-S evil.…


That has nothing to do with "turning the other cheek."  Turning the other cheek simply means, don't take offense.  There are many times when you should not turn the other cheek.  For instance, let's say you caught someone violently raping your son or daughter, or trying to burn down your or your neighbor's house, or going around making a mess of your neighborhood, are you saying that  the RIGHT THING would be for you to not get the police involved for the sake of the safety of not just your child, but others who might be harmed by them?

As for suing, you know what the scriptures say:

Cor. 6

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?

2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?

5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?

6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated?

8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.


Leave room for God to avenge.  That means, don't take matters into your own hands.  (I mean, I dare say that if I caught someone harming my daughters or trying to kill them that I would just simply stand there and let it happen, and "turn the other cheek." )

As for those who want to harm me, well, there are authorities in place put there by God.  And let me tell you something, the District Attorneys/State Prosecutors don't fool around.  When they find out someone's doing something wrong, they as God's minister will not hesitate to collect the FACTS and then drag their backside in court.  And THEY will lower the boom.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 04:25:49 PM by Gina »
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Gina

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2015, 04:41:23 PM »

And as for suing, Paul clearly meant that the brethren were going to law against their own brethren only (only!) to CHEAT THEM.   

I personally do not believe it is a sin to hire an attorney when someone is trying to cheat you.  Otherwise, it would be a SIN to be a lawyer:


13 Diligently help Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their way so that nothing is lacking for them.

14 Our people must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful.


Jesus said:

And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.



That does not mean that you can't STAND UP TO DEFEND or STATE YOUR CASE at all.  It just means, settle STUPID, PETTY, INSIGNIFICANT matters quickly preferably without GETTING DRAGGED ALL THE WAY INTO COURT BEFORE UNJUST JUDGES.

Does that mean that if man wanted to cheat you out of your house or take your eight-year-old for his wife that that would be okay with Jesus?



46 “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love greetings in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts,

47 who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”



Even the apostle Paul didn't just "take it" when he was wrongfully imprisoned.  None of the apostles did.  Didn't Paul have words for those who wrongfully imprisoned him when they tried to let him go out the backdoor?  He gave them all a piece of his mind and a lesson in the law.  He wasn't stupid, he wasn't a doormat.  He didn't hate them, or try to take revenge on them for what they did, of course not.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2015, 04:52:21 PM by Gina »
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Rolihlahla

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2015, 04:48:02 PM »

Alright thanks for the clarity.
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“You offer assistance to the impious, and you are joined in friendship with those who hate the Lord. And for this reason, you certainly deserve the wrath of the Lord."

Gina

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2015, 04:54:44 PM »

Alright thanks for the clarity.

Sure thing jelly bean. :)
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2015, 05:47:58 PM »

When it comes to turning the other cheek,should a follower of Christ involve police when one does you wrong?Should one file a report and sue or would that be considered NOT turning the other cheek?

I'm interested to hear some wisdom regarding this,as I thought we should rather leave room for God's revenge.Correct me if I'm wrong!

Been meaning to raise this up for a while but didn't know how to ask the question,until I read a thread by karel_7 where someone says to her she must call the police.I'm a bit confused about this "turning the other cheek"

Hi Nelson,

None of us can tell you how to handle each individual circumstance that arises in your life. This is something you must learn to handle on your own through prayer and diligent studying of the Word. Only God can justify.

With that being said, I can offer you some scripture which may be of help in guiding you towards a decision and then give you my own personal opinion.



Luke 6:27-36

“But I say to you who hear: Love [ Gk: 'Agape' ] your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.  Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful."

Romans 12:18-21

If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Therefore
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Matthew 22:36-40

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love [ Gk: 'Agape' ] your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Romans 13:9-11

For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love [Gk: 'Agape'] your neighbor as yourself.” Love [Gk: 'Agape' ] does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [ Gk: 'Agape' ] is the fulfillment of the law.

1 Thess 5:14-22

Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.



Living a godly life is impossible for man. It is impossible for man to be saved of himself. It takes the spirit of God to do what is good and right. This is all according to the wisdom of God. Being saved is the hardest thing any human will ever do and God expects a lot from us! We are flat out told to be PERFECT as our Father in heaven is! Ouch, talk about a tall order! Thankfully its not up to us to save ourselves. Thank God!

So what would the wisdom of God advise. Perhaps you could say that Christ would tell you to let this man have the shirt off your back for your Father in heaven who feeds the sparrows and doesn't let one fall without His command will also feed you because you are infinitely more important to Him than a thousand sparrows. He knows your needs and will sustain you. If you don't feel led by the spirit of God to report this man to the authorities then pray for him. Pray that he doesn't steal from another less fortunate than even himself or that he is not led to more evil deeds because of his escaping immediate retribution for the first. I fear that stealing could lead to more depravity including murder. I would certainly pray for him.

Now again I admonish you to study the scriptures. Look at how the patriarchs handled being wronged. What did they do? Were they moved to return evil or did they trust in the one who is able to keep them from stumbling and present them blameless?

I would say, whatever you do, may it be with a clear conscious fully convinced in your own mind that the course is right before God.

Pray without ceasing! God will provide you with the answer. None of us is perfect and salvation is a process. You will stumble, and you will fall, but you will rise again by the grace and mercy of God who is working in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

God bless,
Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Rolihlahla

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2015, 06:57:32 PM »

Question:

Would you say Jesus turned the other cheek by letting the romans crucify Him?
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“You offer assistance to the impious, and you are joined in friendship with those who hate the Lord. And for this reason, you certainly deserve the wrath of the Lord."

Ian 155

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 05:49:34 AM »

Question:

Would you say Jesus turned the other cheek by letting the romans crucify Him?


I don't think there was a choice

Mat 26:53 Or are you supposing that I am not able to entreat My Father, and at present He will station by My side more than twelve legions of messengers?

Joh 6:38 for I have descended from heaven, not that I should be doing My will, but the will of Him Who sends Me."

Mat 26:39 And coming forward a little, He falls on His face, praying and saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass by from Me. However, not as I will, but as Thou!

Isa 53:10 yet Yahweh desires to crush Him, and He causes Him to be wounded. Should you place His soul for a guilt approach, He shall see a seed. He shall lengthen His days, and the desire of Yahweh shall prosper in His hand."
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 06:13:49 AM by Ian 155 »
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se7en

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 04:30:36 PM »

Great question Nelson,

It is given to but few to receive, but the simple answer right from the mouth of our Lord is:

Mat 5:38  Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39  But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Israel defended itself and for that matter even conquered other nations "when they were right with God." But Israel also stoned to death people who gathered sticks on the sabbath, and who committed adultery "when they were right with God." But Christ "changed the law" and made it virtually impossible for the natural man to keep. He changed the law that said "love your neighbor and hate your enemy" into "love thine enemies."

If God has it written in His book that our families and our belongings are to be destroyed by disasters and by outsiders, the story of Job demonstrates there is little we can do about that:

Job 1:13  And there was a day when his [Job's] sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
Job 1:14  And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
Job 1:15  And the Sabeans fell [upon them], and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:16  While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:17  While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:18  While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters [were] eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
Job 1:19  And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:20  Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
Job 1:21  And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Christ put Himself between the Jews who came to apprehend Him and His disciples. But he did not "resist evil," and Christ reprimanded Peter for doing so. Mind you, Jesus Christ was a much better reason to resist evil than Peter's wife and family and all the wives and all the families of the world combined, and still Christ told Peter:

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Just a few hours later, when Pilate was playing the part of the robber rapist in your home, claiming that your life and the life of your children are in his hands, Christ replied to Pilate:

Joh 19:7  The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Joh 19:8  When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
Joh 19:9  And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
Joh 19:10  Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Joh 19:11  Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above:[/b] therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Those words are just as applicable for a burglar or rapist or a murderer in your home and mine as they were applicable to Christ and Pilate.
 
I hope this helps you to see that everything we think we choose to do is actually God working in us, and that it was all written in His book, every day of our lives, before there were any of them.

Psa 139:16  Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
Our will is controlled by God. If we are given faith in God's protection, then we will not fear what the world can do to us. If not, then we may well take up arms to defend God, family and country, and the moment we do so we have just lost the protection that God gives us, when we trust in Him. That does not mean that no man of God ever lost his physical life because he trusted in God. Christ lost His physical life because he trusted in God, but Christ found true lasting life because He was willing to lose His physical life in order to obey God.

As foolish as it may sound, it is not love to defend our brothers who have are being unjustly treated or even killed, if in the process we must disobey the commandments of our Lord. Take a bullet for your wife, yes, by all means, or your brother. Christ would have commended Peter, had Peter been willing to go to the cross with Him, but Peter is you and me. We are willing to die for Christ, but unwilling to die with Him, and rather allow evil to destroy our physical body in order to find our spiritual body. How foolish are these words to the natural man:

Mat 10:39  He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

No, we don't sue our brother. Yes, call the police if the situation calls for it, use the authorities that God has placed in those positions. Yes, we can and must defend our wives and children, but that defense is best when it teaches them to depend upon the Lord for their protection, and not upon the flesh. Greater is the man who trusts in God than the man who trusts in his own strength. No one on earth has power over us that is not given them by God.

I hope this has helped!
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~Se7en

Kat

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 10:01:41 PM »


Hi se7en, I thought your answer was very well put, but I do question one comment...

Quote
Christ lost His physical life because he trusted in God, but Christ found true lasting life because He was willing to lose His physical life in order to obey God.

I would like to add a bit in regards to the comment "Christ found true lasting life," as it is my understanding that Christ always had/has LIFE... maybe that is your meaning, if so this just adds to it.

John 11:25  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

John 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 5:26  For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

John 6:35  And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Thought yes He was born as a human and "was made lower than the angels, for the suffering of death," He was still the Son of God with Life inherent... though certainly dead for a few days, that Life was not lost, just momentarily on hold.

2Cor 13:4  For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

His "weakness" was only in having a human body that could die. But there certainly was something gained in that "He was willing to lose His physical life in order to obey God,"

Heb 5:7  who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
v. 8  though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

So even Christ "had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears" to "let this cup pass"... this plainly shows that Christ sought His Father because He felt great apprehension about the sever suffering He was about to endure. But in spite of His agony He DID obey the will of the Father and faced that sufferings at the hands of His enemies to the point of death.

Php 2:8  And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Rolihlahla

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 03:04:21 PM »

Huh?There was no choice...really Ian?

Thanks 7.
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“You offer assistance to the impious, and you are joined in friendship with those who hate the Lord. And for this reason, you certainly deserve the wrath of the Lord."

Ian 155

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 04:28:41 AM »

Huh?There was no choice...really Ian?

Thanks 7.


YES....  REALLY & TRULY ... AGAINST HIS WILL ,HE WAS FORCED
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 04:32:30 AM by Ian 155 »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 12:07:10 PM »

« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 12:14:56 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Ian 155

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015, 06:40:16 AM »

No...Not truly and really.  He was not forced.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3633.msg27129.html#msg27129



I believe he was "Truly" [forced] i suppose moved or empowered would be a good or better fit, forced sounds to harsh ... like ...as if death isn't,

 "Yes really" was a response to Boils "really Ian"


@ Boils

according to more than 5 witnesses... underlines mine, there are many more


Isa 53:10 yet Yahweh desires to crush Him, and He causes Him to be wounded. Should you place His soul for a guilt approach, He shall see a seed. He shall lengthen His days, and the desire of Yahweh shall prosper in His hand."

Luk 22:42 saying, "Father, if it is Thy intention, carry aside this cup from Me. However, not My will, but Thine, be done!"

Psa 69:26 As for You, they persecute those whom You have smitten, And they are recounting the pain of those wounded by You."

Act 9:16 for I shall be intimating to him how much he must be suffering for My name's sake."

Rom 8:32 Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?

Joh 16:2 for they will be putting you out of the synagogues; but coming is the hour that everyone who is killing you should suppose he is offering divine service to God.

Exo 12:6 And it will become a charge of yours until the fourteenth day of this month. They will slay it, every assembly of the congregation of the sons of Israel, between the evening hours.

(Joh 10:18)  No one is taking it away from Me, but I am laying it down of Myself. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to get it again. This precept I got from My Father."



Don't sound like a choice or free will, but rather The Father getting His way, always...

So it is and will be, with the rest of His children too.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 07:41:02 AM by Ian 155 »
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Kat

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 11:25:16 AM »


Ian, you do not understand the concept of "I do nothing of Myself" (John 8:28). Christ is under the Father's authority now and always has been and will be. The Father is the power that works through Jesus Christ... "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).

John 12:49  For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

What the Father required of Christ, was necessary that 'God' experience what we have to. You used the Isaiah 53 reference that the Concordant states "crushed" Him, as in wrath... that is the totally wrong concept, but He certainly was "bruised" for us in crucifixion.

The struggle Jesus went through in the garden to "let this cup pass" was certainly not in defiance of the Father's will upon Him, but it showed He was fully human and cringed at what was about to happen to Him and turned to the only One that could help Him get through it all.

John 10:17  "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
v. 18  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

You conveniently left these verses out of your list. Can you not believe Jesus when He said "no one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself"? As Ray had taught that means He knew what He would have to face and He volunteered to do it and to say He was forced is opposite, a contradiction, an oxymoron, it can't be both ways.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 03:37:10 PM by Kat »
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John from Kentucky

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2015, 03:02:56 PM »

Jesus is God.

God is sovereign.

Nothing can force God to do anything that He does not want to do.
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Joel

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2015, 01:59:26 AM »

The way I see it Jesus did the things he did out of LOVE, he is a giver, he GAVE his life.
Jesus told Joseph, and Mary that he must be about his FATHERS business.
He was busy doing good, no matter if it was in joy, or in intense pain and suffering.

Psalms 40:6-Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7-Then said I, Lo, I come in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8-I DELIGHT to do thy will, O my GOD: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Hebrews 10:5-Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6-In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast no pleasure.
7-Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O GOD.

Joel
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Ian 155

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2015, 04:13:11 AM »


Ian, you do not understand the concept of "I do nothing of Myself" (John 8:28). Christ is under the Father's authority now and always has been and will be. The Father is the power that works through Jesus Christ... "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).

John 12:49  For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

What the Father required of Christ, was necessary that 'God' experience what we have to. You used the Isaiah 53 reference that the Concordant states "crushed" Him, as in wrath... that is the totally wrong concept, but He certainly was "bruised" for us in crucifixion.

The struggle Jesus went through in the garden to "let this cup pass" was certainly not in defiance of the Father's will upon Him, but it showed He was fully human and cringed at what was about to happen to Him and turned to the only One that could help Him get through it all.

John 10:17  "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
v. 18  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

You conveniently left these verses out of your list. Can you not believe Jesus when He said "no one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself"? As Ray had taught that means He knew what He would have to face and He volunteered to do it and to say He was forced is opposite, a contradiction, an oxymoron, it can't be both ways.

mercy, peace and love
Kat



please check my post again I did not leave John 10 out ...

I have a intimate understanding of the "Concept"

are you suggesting Christ had other options ?

"His will" was overpowered by Love (God)


If I am going thru something that causes my sweat to appear as blood and I beg the Father to please take this scenario away -- yet not my will but thy will be done ??? 

What was My will ??


i maintain That Jesus was Forced,Compelled,Empowered... to do the fathers will

so do we

there REALLY is no choice

"This precept I [too] got from My Father"
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 04:25:51 AM by Ian 155 »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2015, 06:42:56 AM »

Although I am not on this earth to teach English, "forced, empowered, and compelled" are not synonyms. 

Did Jesus DO the will of the Father or not?  If He did, then that WAS His will.  For Him to say NOT MY WILL doesn't mean His will is or was contrary to the Father's will.  Every thing He did and said was according to what was given to Him to do and say.  "Not my will, but Thine" is reiterating this fact He made abundantly clear throughout His ministry as a man.

Are you suggesting that Jesus did NOT love?  That He had to be coerced or forced to lay down His life in love? 

Ray taught in the post I linked to that Jesus VOLUNTEERED.  Volunteering to do the Good Work is not easy.  But Jesus passed His test and received the crown of Life.

I don't know where you are getting your 'doctrine' from, or whether you are making it up.  But I will reiterate that there is 'teaching' floating around that lowers Jesus from the obedient Son to a sinner that needed correction Himself.  It's not going to make a stand here.   

 

   
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 06:53:04 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Rolihlahla

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Re: Turning the other cheek
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2015, 08:28:35 AM »

Ian

2 Cor 9:7-Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart,not grudgingly or under COMPULSION,for God loves a cheerful giver.

Are you saying Jesus gave His life under compulsion?

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“You offer assistance to the impious, and you are joined in friendship with those who hate the Lord. And for this reason, you certainly deserve the wrath of the Lord."
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