> General Discussions
Luke 7:45-47
Gina:
Thanks Dave. I'm not talking about who is going to be first or last in the kingdom. I guess I'm talking about who will end up loving the Lord the most when all is said and done. I really believe it's going to be people that we would never suspect -- dare I say Hitler and Sadam Hussein and the like.
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the father for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
(Rick, If you would be so kind as to pray that we remain humble and obedient, God just might hear that prayer, okay?)
Ian 155:
I think I agree with Kat.. italics and underline my rationale
Those least expected in the kingdom ...
but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. (luk 7 28)
Dave in Tenn:
Jesus didn't say who loves MOST and who loves LEAST. He said MUCH and LITTLE. Gina, maybe it's a meaningless point, but I don't think so.
Will the pharisees (ancient and modern) love least because they will not have been forgiven much? I think the contrary is correct. What is (was) lacking in them was (is) the knowledge of just how bad their sin is. They won't be forgiven first, but they will be forgiven much. Ray said many times in the LOF series how bitter their repentance will be. But in the end, He will wipe every tear from their eyes as well. So I still maintain that Jesus is talking about 'now'...'now' for them will be later than 'now' for the harlots and tax-collectors, but even though all sin is not the same, "to whom much has been given, much will be required."
I think, in the end, we will all love as much as is possible, because that is the character of God. I just don't think that time is in the very next age. But I won't wrestle anybody who thinks differently.
Gina:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on July 15, 2015, 04:01:37 AM ---Jesus didn't say who loves MOST and who loves LEAST. He said MUCH and LITTLE. Gina, maybe it's a meaningless point, but I don't think so.
Will the pharisees (ancient and modern) love least because they will not have been forgiven much? I think the contrary is correct. What is (was) lacking in them was (is) the knowledge of just how bad their sin is. They won't be forgiven first, but they will be forgiven much. Ray said many times in the LOF series how bitter their repentance will be. But in the end, He will wipe every tear from their eyes as well. So I still maintain that Jesus is talking about 'now'...'now' for them will be later than 'now' for the harlots and tax-collectors, but even though all sin is not the same, "to whom much has been given, much will be required."
I think, in the end, we will all love as much as is possible, because that is the character of God. I just don't think that time is in the very next age. But I won't wrestle anybody who thinks differently.
--- End quote ---
Thanks again, Dave. I think we're basically saying the same thing.
But I'm not talking about what's going to happen in the very next age. There is more than the next age after all.
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
I don't know how many ages there are going to be. It could take ages upon ages for some to recognize their greatness of their sins.
I'm not trying to put anyone down or up or anything by saying these things. But the fact of the matter is, since there are those whose sin by comparison is very great, their forgiveness will also have to be equally great.
I'm just imagining when they see the greatness of their sin and that they have been forgiven so much MORE because of how much more they will come to realize they have been forgiven, and their love and appreciation for God will be greater (or MORE great) because they were forgiven so much...more. This isn't to say that they themselves will be greater or favored by God more because they wind up loving God so much more.
You said MUCH and LEAST. Okay. But this is what the texts from different versions say about that:
New International Version
Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
New Living Translation
But neither of them could repay him, so he kindly forgave them both, canceling their debts. Who do you suppose loved him more after that?"
English Standard Version
When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?”
New American Standard Bible
"When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?"
King James Bible
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Since they could not pay it back, he graciously forgave them both. So, which of them will love him more?"
International Standard Version
When they couldn't pay it back, he generously canceled the debts for both of them. Now which of them will love him more?"
NET Bible
When they could not pay, he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And because they had nothing to pay he forgave both of them. Which of them therefore will love him more?”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
When they couldn't pay it back, he was kind enough to cancel their debts. Now, who do you think will love him the most?"
Jubilee Bible 2000
And when they had nothing to pay, he released them both from their debt. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
King James 2000 Bible
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
American King James Version
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
American Standard Version
When they had not wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him most?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And whereas they had not wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which therefore of the two loveth him most?
Darby Bible Translation
but as they had nothing to pay, he forgave both of them [their debt]: [say,] which of them therefore will love him most?
English Revised Version
When they had not wherewith to pay, he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him most?
Webster's Bible Translation
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Weymouth New Testament
But neither of them could pay anything; so he freely forgave them both. Tell me, then, which of them will love him most?"
World English Bible
When they couldn't pay, he forgave them both. Which of them therefore will love him most?"
Young's Literal Translation
and they not having wherewith to give back, he forgave both; which then of them, say thou, will love him more?'
CLV
Now, they having nothing to pay, he deals graciously with both. Which of them, then, will be loving him more?
Rotherham Emphasized they not having wherewith to pay, he forgave, both. Which of them, therefore, will love him, more?
Not having and of them to pay, both he forgive. Which then of them, say more him will love?
And vs 43 says: and the Simon [the pharisee] said: I suppose that to whom the more he forgave.
And Jesus' responded: Rightly thou hast judged.
She was forgiven much more .... more because she had more debt. And all I'm saying is there will be those who have sinned much more than her and will end up loving God much more than that woman because they will have been forgiven much more.
Again, I'm not trying to wrestle (not sure why you said that), I just think these things are good to think on because it keeps me from becoming conceited. i don't know about anyone else, but I can totally relate to that Pharisee, and I think Jesus really exhibited the Father's love toward that Pharisee in the way He was so patient with Simon and not rude, He didn't insist on His own way, He endured the pride coming from the Pharisee regarding the sinful woman. There's a lot you have probably seen for a long time. I'm only now beginning to see it, so thanks for bearing with me a little.
Gina:
... I love how the Concordant phrases this:
Luke 7:43 Now answering, Simon said, "I take it that it is he with whom he deals the more graciously.
Isn't that a beautiful way of seeing God's forgiveness of sin?
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