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The devil made me do it !
Kat:
John I certainly respect what Ray taught to a great degree, always have. Now just as Ray did, we are trying to get to the truth of a matter... did Ray have 'all' truth? Did Ray even put all the understanding that he knew in his articles?
If we are always standing behind Ray, how can we see Christ? We should be standing with Ray and as he never ceased to search the Scripture, so should we. Here is the verse in question, does it say Satan is an angel...
2Cor 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms(G3345) himself into an angel of light.
G3345 metaschēmatizō
to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
Disguise - 1. to change the appearance of to conceal the identity or to resemble another. 2. To hide by a counterfeit appearance;
This is not even saying that Satan is an angel, but is disguised as one, and we do have Scripture that calls Satan "a spirit."
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Now I don't know if Ray studied this aspect of what we are talking about, but regardless we can and should, and this is what I found and have shown it here to help in this study. This is a very small part of the study on this matter and certainly did not discredit Ray in any way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Gina:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 22, 2015, 10:58:49 AM ---
Hi Gina,
I thought I would just let the Scripture speak for itself. But I will say what I observed from the search... that where 'angels' were spoken of as spirit beings in both the OT and the NT, it was always speaking of God's servants. There were those few excepts that I mentioned, but Ray had explained those 'angels' were Pastors, human beings... I showed that in the post with the excerpt from the 23 mins in hell article.
I also put all those scripture that spoke of the wicked spirit beings. What I found is that when these were spoken of it was always as 'a spirit,' never as an angel. Jesus even used "a spirit" when speaking of a spiritual being not from God.
So that was my point, as you had mentioned several times that when angels were spoken of in Scripture they were speaking about God's angel/messenger.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Now it's coming clearer. Thanks, Kat. That is interesting that the wicked spirits were only referred to as spirits not angels.
Remember when Jesus came walking on the water to the disciples. They though they saw a ghost/spirit (can't see spirit) and they were very afraid:
"It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear." But it was not a spirit or a ghost. It was Jesus and Jesus said, to his disciples: It's Me, relax. He doesn't want his disciples to live in fear.
Whereas what I noticed now is that, in every instance where Jesus cast out demons in the people who were oppressed of Satan, the spirits always seemed to be trembling in fear; even the legion demons who spoke to Jesus seemed to be very afraid of Jesus: What do you want with us, Son of God? Have you come to torment us before the time? Matt. 8:29 As if a Lamb who takes way the sin of the world really is a torment. They lie so much.
God does not give to us a spirit of fear.
But the timid/cowards, etc., will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Makes me wonder what Satan this "prince" is really all about. Sounds like big scaredy cat to me. :-D
Jesus said that there was coming a day when he would plainly tell his disciples what the heck was going on. And He did and Paul heard him clearly too.
1 Timothy 4:1 The HOLY Spirit clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the
faith [ the plain and clear and simple teaching of Christ ], paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines [CONFUSING teachings] of demons. That's why that man among the tombs was so out of his mind -- he was totally confused and fearful having paid any attention to a spirit that teaches you to be fearful and afraid.
That's the way I see it. I'm sure there's more and maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and let scripture also speak for itself, but you know... this stuff is interesting and maybe it'll be of help to someone?
John from Kentucky:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 22, 2015, 12:27:00 PM ---
John I certainly respect what Ray taught to a great degree, always have. Now just as Ray did, we are trying to get to the truth of a matter... did Ray have 'all' truth? Did Ray even put all the understanding that he knew in his articles?
If we are always standing behind Ray, how can we see Christ? We should be standing with Ray and as he never ceased to search the Scripture, so should we. Here is the verse in question, does it say Satan is an angel...
2Cor 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms(G3345) himself into an angel of light.
G3345 metaschēmatizō
to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
Disguise - 1. to change the appearance of to conceal the identity or to resemble another. 2. To hide by a counterfeit appearance;
This is not even saying that Satan is an angel, but is disguised as one, and we do have Scripture that calls Satan "a spirit."
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Now I don't know if Ray studied the aspect of this that we are talking about, but regardless we can and should, and this is what I found and have shown it here to help in this study. This is a very small part of the study on this matter and certainly did not discredit Ray in any way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Kat,
This whole question is a minor point and not really worth a great deal of discussion.
I do not agree with Ray on 100% (maybe 98% :D) of his teachings, but in this one I'll stick with old Ray the roofer.
As Dave mentioned in his above post, Satan poses as an angel of light, with the emphasis on light.
Satan poses as an angel(messenger) of light.
When actually Satan is an angel(messenger) of darkness.
And as Ray further expounds in item (2) of his email that I quoted, the angels will not be over the ages to come, but the children of God will be over the future ages.
Now, evil spirit angels are over the present world. Satan is prince over those forces. And as Jesus' temptation in the desert showed, Satan has the power to bestow the riches and the power of this world (age) on whom he wishes (within the bounds set on him by God).
The Scriptures reveal that there is God. That there is humankind. And higher than humankind but below God, there are billions (?) of spirit beings, both good and evil, generically called angels in the translations, whom God has given various things to do, both good and evil. There is more that we don't know than what we do know about these angelic spirit beings.
Now I'll get off so some can hurl the brick bats at me and accuse me of evil things, and not being loving, not being humble, etc., etc., etc. What fun! :-*
Maybe this will help, I've seen others do it,
JFK,
Your loving, humble brother in Christ, in the Holy City of New Jerusalem, Macedonian, Berean, Maranatha, in the Holy Ghost, did I say humble?, yada, yada, yoda, and yogi----Amen and Amen
Gina:
Kat,
Here's another thing:
1 Peter 5:7 casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. 8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around as a roaring lion....
Concordant says: 8 Be sober! Watch! For your plaintiff* the Adversary, is walking about as a roaring lion..."
*Plaintiff: Synonym accuser/complainant/complainer/complaining person
Definition: one who expresses dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure (I've been confusing censure with censorship - two different things - whoops!), resentment, or grief; finding fault (as Satan wanted so badly to find fault with Job),
Disguised as an angel of "light" Someone of the light has great heavenly wisdom and understanding:
"But, if You ever removed the hedge around Job, he'd curse You to Your face ..."
That was yet another prophetic lie (you will not surely die!), for which Satan must die...isn't that how it goes? If someone prophesies and their prophesy fails, that's a false prophet and they have to die? Or something like that?
;D
Dave in Tenn:
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 6
transformed, 2
2Co_11:14-15 (2)
change, 1
Phi_3:21
figure, 1
1Co_4:6
transferred, 1
1Co_4:6
Just to get at the meaning of this word, though it's difficult here.
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you, that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
These refer largely back to vs. 4
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted...
Sounds like most of my time in the synagogue of satan.
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